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Brahma, vishnu and siva – Place of residence

Brahma, vishnu and siva – Place of residence

Updated on August 11, 2021 in General

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SriVaishnava dasan 21 0 on May 7, 2021

Namaskaram.

adiyen had posted a query on thiruparkadal and further checked about details in Srimad Bhagavatam.

https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/whether-thiruparkadal-is-in-satya-lokam/

adiyen would like to share the consolidated details collected on parkadal, Dhruva loka, satya lokam, Vyuga murtis, Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. Hence, I have taken a new thread. adiyen have posted the points from Srimad Bhagavatam in my own words, taking utmost care to provide the same meaning. Since, generally for Vedic cosmology Srimad Bhagavatam is considered to be the main source, adiyen has considered mainly Srimad Bhagavatam.

Ref :: www.srimadbhagavatam.org/downloads/bhagavata-compl.html

I. Bhu Loka / Thiruparkadal / Mount Meru

a. Srimad Bhagavatam :: Consolidated points::

i. When mother earth was overcome by an unbearable burden of countless numbers of conceited Daitya military forces, Lord Brahmâ together with her and Lord S’iva approached the shore of the milk ocean.

ii. Beyond the ocean of milk, the dvîpa of S’âka is situated. Beyond that in dvîpa named Pushkara, there a very big lotus flower with 100 million flower petals of pure gold. This lotus is considered the sitting place of Brahmâ.

iii. On top of mountains at Loka varsha, dwelling place of Brahmâ, established four gaja-patis in the four directions, in order to take care of the stability of the different planets in the universe.

iv. Lord Vishnu rules locally at the top of the mountain at Loka varsha with different weapons and surrounded by Vishvaksena and other representatives. He, for the benefit of all worlds, manifests His form on all sides of that greatest of all mountains. For the duration of a kalpa the Supreme Lord assumes that appearance just to maintain the life in different worlds.

Note :: Though Loka varsha is described in x-axis, i.e., Bhu lokam, Lord Vishnu’s ruling is stated to be on top of the mountain which is in y-axis. This location is not parkadal. Same for (iii).

v. Top of Mount Meru is the dwelling place of Brahma, i.e., in y-axis

vi. Siva is staying with Uma at the foot of Mount Meru, i.e., in Bhu lokam

Inference I :: Milk ocean is mentioned only in Bhu lokam and not in other lokas. Hence, Brahma, Vishnu and Siva reside in Bhu lokam (i), (ii) and (vi). Brahma and Vishnu also reside in higher plane. I could not collect details about Siva’s residence at higher plane.

Question I :: Brahma, Vishnu and Siva will exist till maha pralayam. If they reside in Bhu lokam, then after Naimithika Pralayam when three lokas are dissolved where they will be positioned?. Considering the points (iii), (iv) and (v), this issue is resolved w.r.to Brahma and Vishnu. But still how about Siva?.

Question 2 :: Does Brahma and Vishnu reside at both the places?. adiyen is bit hesitant to accept concept of omnipresence here. Yes. They can be omnipresent, but in this case we are taking about residence, which is a fixed location.

Question 3 :: Each andam has one Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. Considering, Brahma and Siva are jeevatmas, whether their atmas are different in various andams?.

II. Satya lokam

a. Satya loka is the residence of Brahma. adiyen did not find any mention of Satya lokam as the residence of Vishnu and Siva in Srimad Bhagavatam.

b. There is no mention of parkadal in satya lokam.

III. Dhruva lokam

a. adiyen read Brahma, Vishnu and Siva reside in Dhruva lokam. But could not recollect the reference.

Question 4 :: Dhruva loka loka is mentioned in several texts. But it is not mentioned as one among the 14 lokas. What is the reason?.

IV. Vyuga murtis : Vasudevan, Shankarshanan, Prathyumnan, aniruddhan

i. adiyen did not find any mention of Thiruparkadal as the residence of Vyuga murtis in Srimad Bhagavatam.

ii. Shankarshanan is stated to comes out of adiseshan, supporting the andam, to carry out pralayam.

iii. adiyen could not find details of the residence of Vasudevan, Prathyumnan and aniruddhan.

Question 5 :: Where does Vasudevan, Prathyumnan and aniruddhan reside.

Question 6 :: Based on IV (ii), there will be as many number of Shankarshanan as number of andams. Are there as many number of vyuga murtis as number of andams. Or only one with manifestation for each andam for the entire leela vibhudhi.

NOTE :: The above details is liable for correction if any omission or correction is pointed out based on the scripture. I could have missed some points also.

adiyen

Srivaishnava dasan

Namaskaram.
adiyen had posted a query on thiruparkadal and further checked about details in Srimad Bhagavatam.
<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/whether-thiruparkadal-is-in-satya-lokam/">https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/whether-thiruparkadal-is-in-satya-lokam/</a>
adiyen would like to share the consolidated details collected on parkadal, Dhruva loka, satya lokam, Vyuga murtis, Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. Hence, I have taken a new thread. adiyen have posted the points from Srimad Bhagavatam in my own words, taking utmost care to provide the same meaning. Since, generally for Vedic cosmology Srimad Bhagavatam is considered to be the main source, adiyen has considered mainly Srimad Bhagavatam.
Ref ::  <a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://www.srimadbhagavatam.org/downloads/bhagavata-compl.html">www.srimadbhagavatam.org/downloads/bhagavata-compl.html</a>
I. Bhu Loka / Thiruparkadal / Mount Meru
a. Srimad Bhagavatam :: Consolidated points::
i. When mother earth was overcome by an unbearable burden of countless numbers of conceited Daitya military forces, Lord Brahmâ together with her and Lord S'iva approached the shore of the milk ocean.
ii. Beyond the ocean of milk, the dvîpa of S'âka is situated. Beyond that in dvîpa named Pushkara, there a very big lotus flower with 100 million flower petals of pure gold. This lotus is considered the sitting place of Brahmâ.
iii. On top of mountains at Loka varsha, dwelling place of Brahmâ, established four gaja-patis in the four directions, in order to take care of the stability of the different planets in the universe.
iv. Lord Vishnu rules locally at the top of the mountain at Loka varsha with different weapons and surrounded by Vishvaksena and other representatives. He, for the benefit of all worlds, manifests His form on all sides of that greatest of all mountains. For the duration of a kalpa the Supreme Lord assumes that appearance just to maintain the life in different worlds.
Note :: Though Loka varsha is described in x-axis, i.e., Bhu lokam, Lord Vishnu’s ruling is stated to be on top of the mountain which is in y-axis. This location is not parkadal. Same for (iii).
v. Top of Mount Meru is the dwelling place of Brahma, i.e., in y-axis
vi. Siva is staying with Uma at the foot of Mount Meru, i.e., in Bhu lokam
Inference I :: Milk ocean is mentioned only in Bhu lokam and not in other lokas. Hence, Brahma, Vishnu and Siva reside in Bhu lokam (i), (ii) and (vi). Brahma and Vishnu also reside in higher plane. I could not collect details about Siva’s residence at higher plane.
Question I :: Brahma, Vishnu and Siva will exist till maha pralayam. If they reside in Bhu lokam, then after Naimithika Pralayam when three lokas are dissolved where they will be positioned?. Considering the points (iii), (iv) and (v), this issue is resolved w.r.to Brahma and  Vishnu. But still how about Siva?.
Question 2 :: Does Brahma and Vishnu reside at both the places?. adiyen is bit hesitant to accept concept of omnipresence here. Yes. They can be omnipresent, but in this case we are taking about residence, which is a fixed location.
Question 3 :: Each andam has one Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. Considering, Brahma and Siva are jeevatmas, whether their atmas are different in various andams?.
 II. Satya lokam
a. Satya loka is the residence of Brahma. adiyen did not find any mention of Satya lokam as the residence of Vishnu and Siva in Srimad Bhagavatam.
b. There is no mention of parkadal in satya lokam.
III. Dhruva lokam
a. adiyen read Brahma, Vishnu and Siva reside in Dhruva lokam. But could not recollect the reference.
Question 4 :: Dhruva loka loka is mentioned in several texts. But it is not mentioned as one among the 14 lokas. What is the reason?.
IV. Vyuga murtis : Vasudevan, Shankarshanan, Prathyumnan, aniruddhan
i. adiyen did not find any mention of Thiruparkadal as the residence of Vyuga murtis in Srimad Bhagavatam.
ii. Shankarshanan is stated to comes out of adiseshan, supporting the andam, to carry out pralayam.
iii. adiyen could not find details of the residence of Vasudevan, Prathyumnan and aniruddhan.
Question 5 :: Where does Vasudevan, Prathyumnan and aniruddhan reside.
Question 6 :: Based on IV (ii), there will be as many number of Shankarshanan as number of andams. Are there as many number of vyuga murtis as number of andams. Or only one with manifestation for each andam for the entire leela vibhudhi.
NOTE :: The above details is liable for correction if any omission or correction is pointed out based on the scripture. I could have missed some points also.
adiyen
Srivaishnava dasan

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enpanifan 4 0 on May 7, 2021

Sriamte Ramanujaye Namaha,

Too many points and too difficult to comprehend the analysis swamy.

I could not fully follow and understand your analysis.

But i would share one point which i think might be relevant.

When we say horizontal and vertical.. while mentioning dweepas in bhuloka and about lokas above bhuloka in y axis it is perhaps not strictly horizontal and vertical..like boxes.

In vedatanta course lesson 16 it was indicated that 6th/7th ocean in the x-axis is thirupaar kadal.. but “it can extend in the y axis also above in many lokas..perhaps.. in which case Thirupaarkadal will exist in that x value for all Y values.”. so thirupaarkadal will be a like a thick cylinder instead of a just a disc in Bhuloka..

then we cannot conclude that Paar kadal belongs to bhuloka only..

This is my logical guess to make the ends meet, not sure of an authentic reference to support my statement.

I have a related query:

But in that lecture ( chapter 16, vedanta course), Swami mentioned that those who do Upasana will go to Vishnu loka in Satyloka but will be still in cycle of birth and death.. so i am not clear of among those who worship Lord Vishnu, who joins Him in Vaikunta planets and who joins Him in satya loka?

Adiyen

Thirukachidaasanudasan

SriVaishnava dasan 0 on May 7, 2021

adiyen brought all the related points from Srimad Bhagavatham in a single thread, in totality. adiyen did not want to take them to couple of threads by breaking up. However, the points from various chapters are summed up, categorised systematically and brought out pointwise for better understanding. One will not understand these points, if it is taken up in multi threads and one will loose the continuity. May be one need to study with some concentration.

adiyen

enpanifan 0 on May 7, 2021

Swamy for I.i to I.vi what are the verses from which the information was collected?

SriVaishnava dasan 0 on May 7, 2021

swamy,

Collection, compiling and categorisation of the above information has taken sufficient time. Adiyen feel, if such consolidated information is also available from other scriptures, one can study, compare and understand in a better manner, since one can bring all the related things in a single document. That was the idea behind adiyen’s attempt and did only from Srimad Bhagavatham. The details mentioned by adiyen is taken from the ref I have indicated. I have not provided any of my points.

There is no mention of extension of parkadal in that ref. If they are elevated, will it not interfere with other lokas. Only mountains are elevated, may be that too not to the height interfering with other lokas.

Swami mentioned that those who do Upasana will go to Vishnu loka in Satyloka but will be still in cycle of birth and death.From enpanifan

Can you provide the scriptural ref (may be any link) where it is mentioned that Vishnu loka is in satya loka?. Assuming Vishnu loka is in satya loka i.e., in an andam, I would consider the following can be the reason (only an investigative guess). Narayanan resides in Vaikuntam and Vishnu in Vishnu loka, who is manifested from anirudhan. Paravasudevan manifested himself to Anirudhan (apart from other three). Gita says, those who worship a particular deity reaches only that deity and not beyond that. So, those who worship Vishnu reaches Vishnu loka and will be still in cycle of birth and death. It is to be noted that there will be innumerable satya lokas in leela vibhudhi. Whereas, those who worship Narayanan reaches Vaikuntam. The reason for my guess is that in another thread adiyen has enquired whether Vishnu is also a jeevatma like Brahma and Siva, since they come for particular job. Since the various names of Narayanan are used interchangeably at all places, adiyen has dropped that doubt. There is no clear cut details how tri murtis come from vyuga murtis and what work is assigned to Vasudevan, in the ref mentioned by me. (or adiyen could not get them correctly?).

Another important point I would like to mention is that adiyen heard in Swamy’s upanyasam that a devotee reaches vaikuntam, irrespective of the deity he worships, if he worships with an intension of attaining motcham alone. This gives an indication that the intention of worship matters and not the deity.

May be that is the reason why vedam is called மறை. adiyen opine that the things will be clear only after one read and understand Brahmasutra or Sri Bashyam. adiyen do not know when I will have that opportunity.

adiyen

swamy, 
Collection, compiling and categorisation of the above information has taken sufficient time. Adiyen feel, if such consolidated information is also available from other scriptures, one can study, compare and understand in a better manner, since one can bring all the related things in a single document. That was the idea behind adiyen’s attempt and did only from Srimad Bhagavatham. The details mentioned by adiyen is taken from the ref I have indicated. I have not provided any of my points.   
There is no mention of extension of parkadal in that ref. If they are elevated, will it not interfere with other lokas. Only mountains are elevated, may be that too not to the height interfering with other lokas. 
[quote author="enpanifan"]Swami mentioned that those who do Upasana will go to Vishnu loka in Satyloka but will be still in cycle of birth and death.[/quote] 
Can you provide the scriptural ref (may be any link) where it is mentioned that Vishnu loka is in satya loka?. Assuming Vishnu loka is in satya loka i.e., in an andam, I would consider the following can be the reason (only an investigative guess). Narayanan resides in Vaikuntam and Vishnu in Vishnu loka, who is manifested from anirudhan. Paravasudevan manifested himself to Anirudhan (apart from other three). Gita says, those who worship a particular deity reaches only that deity and not beyond that. So, those who worship Vishnu reaches Vishnu loka and will be still in cycle of birth and death. It is to be noted that there will be innumerable satya lokas in leela vibhudhi. Whereas, those who worship Narayanan reaches Vaikuntam. The reason for my guess is that in another thread adiyen has enquired whether Vishnu is also a jeevatma like Brahma and Siva, since they come for particular job. Since the various names of Narayanan are used interchangeably at all places, adiyen has dropped that doubt. There is no clear cut details how tri murtis come from vyuga murtis and what work is assigned to Vasudevan, in the ref mentioned by me. (or adiyen could not get them correctly?). 
Another important point I would like to mention is that adiyen heard in Swamy's upanyasam that a devotee reaches vaikuntam, irrespective of the deity he worships, if he worships with an intension of attaining motcham alone. This gives an indication that the intention of worship matters and not the deity. 
May be that is the reason why vedam is called மறை. adiyen opine that the things will be clear only after one read and understand Brahmasutra or Sri Bashyam. adiyen do not know when I will have that opportunity. 
adiyen

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SriVaishnava dasan 0 on May 7, 2021

“”I.i to I.vi what are the verses””

adiyen have to look into.

Alternatively, it can be found in the pdf file of the complete Bhagavatham file from the link indicated, by searching using the word. I think it will be helpful in locating any omissions from my side also.

adiyen

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Sriamte Ramanujaye Namaha, 
Too many points and too difficult to comprehend the analysis swamy. 
I could not fully follow and understand your analysis. 
But i would  share one point which i think might be relevant. 
When we say horizontal and vertical.. while mentioning dweepas in bhuloka and about lokas above bhuloka in y axis it is perhaps not strictly horizontal and vertical..like boxes. 
In vedatanta course lesson 16 it was indicated that 6th/7th  ocean in the x-axis is thirupaar kadal.. but "it can extend in the y axis also above in many lokas..perhaps.. in which case Thirupaarkadal will exist in that x value for all Y values.". so thirupaarkadal will be a like a thick cylinder instead of a just a disc in Bhuloka.. 
then we cannot conclude that Paar kadal belongs to bhuloka only.. 
This is my logical guess to make the ends meet, not sure of an authentic reference to support my statement. 
I have a related query: 
But in that lecture ( chapter 16, vedanta course), Swami mentioned that those who do Upasana will go to Vishnu loka in Satyloka but will be still in cycle of birth and death.. so  i am not clear of among those who worship Lord Vishnu, who joins Him in Vaikunta planets and who joins Him in satya loka? 
Adiyen 
Thirukachidaasanudasan

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ElayaAlwar 1 0 on May 8, 2021

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram Jayaram Swami,

The online Vedadatabase website of Srimadh Bhagavatam translations are based on “Chaitanya Vaishnavism” which is a branch of this Brahma-madhva sampradayam founded by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu based on Philosophy “Achintya Bheda Abheda” or “Achintya”. Iskcon Founder-Acarya Swami Prabhupada comes in the brahma-madhva-gaudiya disciplic succession. They keep saying Shiva as Sadashiva and Brahma, Shiva exists after Maha Pralayam, which is NOT same as the CROWN Vishista Adivaita “Sri Sampradaya” Swami Ramanujacharya explanations, however there are some correct interpretations in vedadatabase online matching the CROWN Vishshita Advaita poorvacharyas explanations.

In general, The doubts doesn’t arise if one follows and listens or reads the CROWN Samapradya Vishsita Advaita texts,

There are numerous Velukkudi Swami’s Upanyasmas like Yathindra Mata Deepika and other updanyasams name in the below link with some short crisp details adiyen posted. Either listen to Swami’s these Upanysams topics or try to understand from the crisp Shristi Procedure that adiyen mentioned .

Naimithyika paralayam is not consolidation of three lokas. It is Aathyanthika pralayam.

Naimithyika paralayam is termed for a particular JeevAthma situation when it reaches SriVaikuntam (no Re-birth) and not rleated to teh loka consolidation.

After Maha Pralayam, JeevAthmas in Brahma Post or Shiva post are dissolved and those JeevAthmas reach ACTUAL SRIVAIKUNTAM (Moksham) ONLY if their Upasana Bhakthi is accepted by BhagavAn, if not, they take next birth as some punya Athma in Samsara. Like, Vishsita Advaita Poorvacharyas have said that the present Veda Vyasa post was occupied by another Punya JeevAthma named Krishna Dvaipaayanar who was actually Previous Kalpa Kaala Brahma who didnot reach SriVaikuntam while in his previous Brahma post.

Velukkudi SriKrishnan Swami has said that One ANdam has 14 lokas and each ANdam has one Brahma Post and one Shiva post, and like that there are countless Andams in Samsaram (Leela Vibhuthi/Material world) and each are occupied by different Jeevathmas like us in Brahma post or Shiva post, but Sri Vishnu is common of all those ANdams since HE is ParamAthma Sriman NarayanA CONTROLLER/PROTECTOR of ALL those in each Devatas post . SO Sathya loka is not the Spiritual world, but it is said so because it has more number of GYanis residing in it, but still material world subject to dissolution at the Maha Pralaya due to BHagavan Sriman NarayanA taking as Sankarshana Avataram utilizing HIS two of the Kalyana GUnas “Gyana & Bhala” Qualities for TOTAL Dissolution.

So Sriman Narayan from Vaikuntam (ParaVasudevan) takes the Vyuha AVatram inside Samsaram as SriVishnu and Temporarily resides in Sathya Loka in a place called “Kaarya Vaikuntam” which is inside this Samsaram and not same as the ORGINAL SriVAikuntam beyond the VIrajai Nadhi. He resides there inorder to support Brahma in his creation process and help other BaddhAThmas in devata posts liek Brahma, Indra, Agni etc… and to uplift BaddhAthams like us. So dont get carried away by looking at the name “vaikunta” in texts, since the other samprdhayam confuses the local Kaarya Vaikuntam and equates it to the ORiginal SriVaikuntam which is beyond Virajai Nadhi, whcih keesp teh reader in confused state.

So the ACTUAL SRIVAIKUNTAM (Nithya Vibhothi/Spiritual world) is beyond all the countless ANdams separated by Virajai Nadhi which any BaddhAtham (JeevAthma with akrmas) in Brahma post or SHiva post has NEVER seen as said by Velukkudi Swami in Panchsamskaram UPanyasam.

So please go through the previous below link about BhagavaAn Shristi procedure with Pateince and OPEN MIND and undersatnd what roles Brahma and Shiva are given inside one Andam and How Sriman Narayan does the PRIMARY creation(Advaraka Shristi) and then HE hands over the Secondary creation (Sadvaraka Shristi) to a BaddAthma (JeevAthma with Karmas) for the post Brahma, and further Rudra got created from Brahma’s eyebrows when Brahma got angry while his fours sons Sanatanika Kumaras refused to support him in further secondary creation process as handed over by Sriman Narayana, so on……

Swami Ramanuja BHagavAn’s Shristi Procedure | Dharma Sandeha (kinchit.org)

Adiyen (ELayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan

SriVaishnava dasan 0 on August 11, 2021

ElayaAlwar swamy,

Namaskaram.

I happened to go through the thread just now

https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/bharanyasam-vs-pancha-samskaram/

wherein you have quoted

adiyen found Dharma Sandeha, which was the right platform to execute adiyen Acharyan Aanai,From Chowkidhar KongilPiratti

and so on…….

The content of this paragraph made me to post once again, enquiring about your non-participation.

Hope you are doing well. Considering the above mentioned paragraph of the specified thread, your sudden silence for about 3 months, without any notice, is worrying me about your non-participation. Can I know the reason.

adiyen

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Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha, 
Namaskaram Jayaram Swami, 
The online Vedadatabase website of Srimadh Bhagavatam translations are based on "Chaitanya Vaishnavism" which is a branch of this Brahma-madhva sampradayam founded by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu based on Philosophy “Achintya Bheda Abheda” or “Achintya”. Iskcon Founder-Acarya Swami Prabhupada comes in the brahma-madhva-gaudiya disciplic succession. They keep saying Shiva as Sadashiva and Brahma, Shiva exists after Maha Pralayam, which is NOT same as the CROWN Vishista Adivaita "Sri Sampradaya" Swami Ramanujacharya explanations, however there are some correct interpretations in vedadatabase online matching the CROWN Vishshita Advaita poorvacharyas explanations. 
In general, The doubts doesn't arise if one follows and listens or reads the CROWN Samapradya Vishsita Advaita texts, 
There are numerous Velukkudi Swami's Upanyasmas like Yathindra Mata Deepika and other updanyasams name in the below link with some short crisp details adiyen posted. Either listen to Swami's these Upanysams topics or try to understand from the crisp Shristi Procedure that adiyen mentioned . 
Naimithyika paralayam is not consolidation of three lokas. It is Aathyanthika pralayam. 
Naimithyika paralayam is termed for a particular JeevAthma situation when it reaches SriVaikuntam (no Re-birth) and not rleated to teh loka consolidation. 
After Maha Pralayam, JeevAthmas in Brahma Post or Shiva post are dissolved and those JeevAthmas reach ACTUAL SRIVAIKUNTAM (Moksham) ONLY if their Upasana Bhakthi is accepted by BhagavAn, if not, they take next birth as some punya Athma in Samsara. Like, Vishsita Advaita Poorvacharyas have said that the present Veda Vyasa post was occupied by another Punya JeevAthma named Krishna Dvaipaayanar who was actually Previous Kalpa Kaala Brahma who didnot reach SriVaikuntam while in his previous Brahma post. 
Velukkudi SriKrishnan Swami has said that One ANdam has 14 lokas and each ANdam has one Brahma Post and one Shiva post, and like that there are countless Andams in Samsaram (Leela Vibhuthi/Material world) and each are occupied by different Jeevathmas like us in Brahma post or Shiva post, but Sri Vishnu is common of all those ANdams since HE is ParamAthma Sriman NarayanA CONTROLLER/PROTECTOR of ALL those in each Devatas post . SO Sathya loka is not the Spiritual world, but it is said so because it has more number of GYanis residing in it, but still material world subject to dissolution at the Maha Pralaya due to BHagavan Sriman NarayanA taking as Sankarshana Avataram utilizing HIS two of the Kalyana GUnas "Gyana & Bhala" Qualities for TOTAL Dissolution. 
So Sriman Narayan from Vaikuntam (ParaVasudevan) takes the Vyuha AVatram inside Samsaram as SriVishnu and  Temporarily resides in Sathya Loka in a place called "Kaarya Vaikuntam" which is inside this Samsaram and not same as the ORGINAL SriVAikuntam beyond the VIrajai Nadhi. He resides there inorder to support Brahma in his creation process and help other BaddhAThmas in devata posts liek Brahma, Indra, Agni etc... and to uplift BaddhAthams like us. So dont get carried away by looking at the name "vaikunta" in texts, since the other samprdhayam confuses the local Kaarya Vaikuntam and equates it to the ORiginal SriVaikuntam which is beyond Virajai Nadhi, whcih keesp teh reader in confused state. 
So the ACTUAL SRIVAIKUNTAM (Nithya Vibhothi/Spiritual world) is beyond all the countless ANdams separated by Virajai Nadhi  which any BaddhAtham (JeevAthma with akrmas) in Brahma post or SHiva post has NEVER seen as said by Velukkudi Swami in Panchsamskaram UPanyasam. 
So please go through the previous below link about BhagavaAn Shristi procedure with Pateince and OPEN MIND and undersatnd what roles Brahma and Shiva are given inside one Andam and How Sriman Narayan does the PRIMARY creation(Advaraka Shristi) and then HE hands over the Secondary creation (Sadvaraka Shristi) to a BaddAthma (JeevAthma with Karmas) for the post Brahma, and further Rudra got created from Brahma's eyebrows when Brahma got angry while his fours sons Sanatanika Kumaras refused to support him in further secondary creation process as handed over by Sriman Narayana, so on...... 
  
<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/swami-ramanuja-bhagavans-shristi-procedure/">Swami Ramanuja BHagavAn’s Shristi Procedure | Dharma Sandeha (kinchit.org)</a> 
Adiyen (ELayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan

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enpanifan 1 0 on May 8, 2021

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,

Elayalwaar swami, please consider the following..

I had already indicated that we should not differentiae between Bhagawan’s samapradayas..you can follow one..but not claim that others are imperfect. This is not healthy thought.. Even if you think so it is not an etiquette to publish so in an online forum. https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/focusing-internally-vs-external/
Secondly, there are so many queries in different aspects that Jayaram swamy has posted, i am surprised that your entire post addresses a single point alone.
If one fully worships Shri Krishna with devotion and does not even know about Lord Shiva it is is still fine, but out of misunderstanding if one keeps disrespecting and downplaying Lord Shiva’s role/position..it is not good.
I have provided enough references from https://vedabase.io/en/library/bs/5/ on explaining about Lord Shiva’s position.in this thread “Swami Ramanuja BHagavAn’s Shristi Procedure | Dharma Sandeha (kinchit.org)“
The possible reason why this misunderstanding has arisen is as follows: We know that there are 12 Aadityas, 11 Rudras, 8 Vasus and 2 Aswini Kumaras. The names of 12 aadityas and 11 rudras vary form purana to purana. As per Vishnu purana..12 aadityas are “Vishnu, Aryaman,Śakra ,Tvaṣṭṛ,Varuṇa, Dhūti, Bhaga, Savitṛ, Vivasvat, Aṃśa,Mitra, Pūṣan” and 11 Rudras are ” Manyu Manu Mahmasa Mahan Siva Rtudhvaja Ugraretas Bhava Kama Vamadeva Dhrtavrata”
One of the Aadityas has the name Vishnu and one of the Rudras has the name Siva. We also know that these 33 are posts and not specific souls (that is perhaps the reason why the names are different in different puranas) But we know that actual Sri Maha Vishnu is different from the Vishnu listed in Aaditya. Similarly Sada shiva is different from the rudras mentioned above. During Saiva Vaishnava clashes, Saiviates perhaps used the above to claim that Vishnu is a post and Vaishnavites claimed that Siva is a post. So linking Rudras with Sada shiva is what have led to the problem of not being able to reconcile what is told in Brahma Samhita and what you have read else where.

I think i have conveyed all my views earlier and more so in this post.. i think it would be better for me not to invest more time in this direction.

Adiyen

Thirukachidaasanudasan

SriVaishnava dasan 0 on May 8, 2021

Namaskaram, ElayaAlwar swamy.

Thank you for your response.

1. https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/swami-ramanuja-bhagavans-shristi-procedure/

adiyen went through the above thread before posting this thread. Devareer have mentioned to have taken the details from SriPerumbuthoor’s Embar JeeyAr Acharya MAP and ended recommending Srimad Bhagavatam. adiyen preferred to Srimad Bhagavatam only, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, which is moola script. adiyen strongly believe Srimad Bhagavatam can be a suitable reference in this regard.

2. ” Naimithyika pralayam is not consolidation of three lokas” :: I meant dissolution of 3 worlds and mentioned it as Naimithyika pralayam.

https://ramanuja.org/sri/BhaktiListArchives/Article?p=mar2000/0012.html

Naimithyika pralayam appears to be correct only.

3. “CROWN Vishshita Advaita poorvacharyas explanations” :: Kindly provide the link. adiyen could not get the complete text in a single pdf from other sites. There are only a few sites providing pdf files on Bhagavatam. Hence, referred to the link I mentioned.

Alternatively from my side, I will check with the verses themselves rather than trying to know which is the correct translation. adiyen can post the verses to know the correct meaning. Even within one sampradayam there are contrasting principles and philosophies.

4. ”but Sri Vishnu is common of all those ANdams” :: https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/narayanan-consorts/

Sri. Velukkudi swamy responded by saying “In every Parkkadal Sri Mahalakshmi and Bhoodevi would manifest and be present”. Hence in such case, adiyen presume that there will be as many number of Vishnus also and not one vishnu for the entire leela vibhudhi.

5. “So Sriman Narayan from Vaikuntam(ParaVasudevan)” :: adiyen did not rise any query or mentioned to have having any confusion on vaikuntam.

adiyen

Namaskaram, ElayaAlwar swamy. 
Thank you for your response. 
1. <a href="https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/swami-ramanuja-bhagavans-shristi-procedure/">https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/swami-ramanuja-bhagavans-shristi-procedure/</a> 
adiyen went through the above thread before posting this thread. Devareer have mentioned to have taken the details from SriPerumbuthoor’s Embar JeeyAr Acharya MAP and ended recommending Srimad Bhagavatam. adiyen preferred to Srimad Bhagavatam only, as I mentioned earlier in this thread, which is moola script. adiyen strongly believe Srimad Bhagavatam can be a suitable reference in this regard. 
2. ” Naimithyika pralayam is not consolidation of three lokas” ::  I meant dissolution of 3 worlds and mentioned it as Naimithyika pralayam. 
<a href="https://ramanuja.org/sri/BhaktiListArchives/Article?p=mar2000/0012.html">https://ramanuja.org/sri/BhaktiListArchives/Article?p=mar2000/0012.html</a> 
Naimithyika pralayam appears to be correct only. 
3. “CROWN Vishshita Advaita poorvacharyas explanations” :: Kindly provide the link. adiyen could not get the complete text in a single pdf from other sites. There are only a few sites providing pdf files on Bhagavatam. Hence, referred to the link I mentioned. 
Alternatively from my side, I will check with the verses themselves rather than trying to know which is the correct translation. adiyen can post the verses to know the correct meaning. Even within one sampradayam there are contrasting principles and philosophies. 
4. ”but Sri Vishnu is common of all those ANdams” :: <a href="https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/narayanan-consorts/">https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/narayanan-consorts/</a> 
Sri. Velukkudi swamy responded by saying “In every Parkkadal Sri Mahalakshmi and Bhoodevi would manifest and be present”. Hence in such case, adiyen presume that there will be as many number of Vishnus also and not one vishnu for the entire leela vibhudhi. 
5. “So Sriman Narayan from Vaikuntam(ParaVasudevan)” ::  adiyen did not rise any query or mentioned to have having any confusion on vaikuntam. 
adiyen

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Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha, 
Elayalwaar swami, please consider the following.. 
<ol> 
<li>I had already indicated that we should not differentiae between Bhagawan's samapradayas..you can follow one..but not claim that others are imperfect. This is not healthy thought.. Even if you think so it is not an etiquette to publish so in an online forum. <a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/focusing-internally-vs-external/">https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/focusing-internally-vs-external/</a></li> 
<li>Secondly, there are so many queries in different aspects that Jayaram swamy has posted, i am surprised that your entire post addresses a single point alone.</li> 
<li>If one fully worships Shri Krishna with devotion and does not even know about Lord Shiva it is is still fine, but out of misunderstanding if one keeps disrespecting and downplaying Lord Shiva's role/position..it is not good.</li> 
<li>I have provided enough references from <a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="https://vedabase.io/en/library/bs/5/">https://vedabase.io/en/library/bs/5/</a> on explaining about Lord Shiva's position.in this thread "<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/swami-ramanuja-bhagavans-shristi-procedure/">Swami Ramanuja BHagavAn’s Shristi Procedure | Dharma Sandeha (kinchit.org)</a>"</li> 
<li>The possible reason why this misunderstanding has arisen is as follows: We know that there are 12 Aadityas, 11 Rudras, 8 Vasus and 2 Aswini Kumaras. The names of 12 aadityas and 11 rudras vary form purana to purana. As per Vishnu purana..12 aadityas are "Vishnu, Aryaman,Śakra ,Tvaṣṭṛ,Varuṇa, Dhūti, Bhaga, Savitṛ, Vivasvat, Aṃśa,Mitra, Pūṣan" and 11 Rudras are "  Manyu Manu Mahmasa Mahan Siva Rtudhvaja Ugraretas Bhava Kama Vamadeva Dhrtavrata"  One of the Aadityas has the name Vishnu and one of the Rudras has the name Siva. We also know that these 33 are posts and not specific souls (that is perhaps the reason why the names are different in different puranas)  But we know that actual Sri Maha Vishnu is different from the Vishnu listed in Aaditya. Similarly Sada shiva is different from the rudras mentioned above.  During Saiva Vaishnava clashes, Saiviates perhaps used the above to claim that Vishnu is a post and Vaishnavites claimed  that Siva is a post. So linking Rudras with  Sada shiva is what have led to the problem of not being able to reconcile what is told in Brahma Samhita and what you have read else where.</li> 
</ol> 
I think i have conveyed all my views earlier and more so in this post.. i think it would be better for me not to invest more time in this direction. 
  
Adiyen 
Thirukachidaasanudasan

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SriVaishnava dasan 0 0 on May 8, 2021

ElayaAlwar & enpanifan swamis,

adiyen is providing the ref of the verses and the verses themselves against adiyen’s references.

Ref – I (i) :: Canto 10, Chapter 1 – Verses 17 & 19

ŚB 10.1.17

भूमिर्द‍ृप्तनृपव्याजदैत्यानीकशतायुतै: । आक्रान्ता भूरिभारेण ब्रह्माणं शरणं ययौ ॥

bhūmir dṛpta-nṛpa-vyāja-daityānīka-śatāyutaiḥ
ākrāntā bhūri-bhāreṇa brahmāṇaṁ śaraṇaṁ yayau

ŚB 10.1.19

ब्रह्मा तदुपधार्याथ सह देवैस्तया सह । जगाम सत्रिनयनस्तीरं क्षीरपयोनिधे: ॥

brahmā tad-upadhāryātha saha devais tayā saha
jagāma sa-tri-nayanas tīraṁ kṣīra-payo-nidheḥ

Ref – I (ii) :: Canto 5, Chapter 20 – Verse 24

ŚB 5.20.24

एवं पुरस्तात्क्षीरोदात्परित उपवेशित: शाकद्वीपो द्वात्रिंशल्लक्षयोजनायाम: समानेन च दधिमण्डोदेन परीतो यस्मिन् शाको नाम महीरुह: स्वक्षेत्रव्यपदेशको यस्य ह महासुरभिगन्धस्तं द्वीपमनुवासयति ॥

evaṁ purastāt kṣīrodāt parita upaveśitaḥ śākadvīpo dvātriṁśal-lakṣa-yojanāyāmaḥ samānena ca dadhi-maṇḍodena parīto yasmin śāko nāma mahīruhaḥ sva-kṣetra-vyapadeśako yasya ha mahā-surabhi-gandhas taṁ dvīpam anuvāsayati

Ref – I (iii) :: Canto 5, Chapter 20 – Verse 39

ŚB 5.20.39

तदुपरिष्टाच्चतसृष्वाशास्वात्मयोनिनाखिलजगद्गुरुणाधिनिवेशिता ये द्विरदपतय ऋषभ: पुष्करचूडो वामनोऽपराजित इति सकललोकस्थितिहेतव: ॥

tad-upariṣṭāc catasṛṣv āśāsvātma-yoninākhila-jagad-guruṇādhiniveśitā ye dvirada-pataya ṛṣabhaḥ puṣkaracūḍo vāmano ’parājita iti sakala-loka-sthiti-hetavaḥ.

Ref – I (iv) :: Canto 5, Chapter 20 – verses 40 & 41

ŚB 5.20.40

तेषां स्वविभूतीनां लोकपालानां च विविधवीर्योपबृंहणाय भगवान् परममहापुरुषो महाविभूतिपतिरन्तर्याम्यात्मनो विशुद्धसत्त्वं धर्मज्ञानवैराग्यैश्वर्याद्यष्टमहासिद्ध्युपलक्षणं विष्वक्सेनादिभि: स्वपार्षदप्रवरै: परिवारितो निजवरायुधोपशोभितैर्निजभुजदण्डै: सन्धारय-माणस्तस्मिन् गिरिवरे समन्तात्सकललोकस्वस्तय आस्ते ॥

teṣāṁ sva-vibhūtīnāṁ loka-pālānāṁ ca vividha-vīryopabṛṁhaṇāya bhagavān parama-mahā-puruṣo mahā-vibhūti-patir antaryāmy ātmano viśuddha-sattvaṁ dharma-jñāna-vairāgyaiśvaryādy-aṣṭa-mahā-siddhy-upalakṣaṇaṁ viṣvaksenādibhiḥ sva-pārṣada-pravaraiḥ parivārito nija-varāyudhopaśobhitair nija-bhuja-daṇḍaiḥ sandhārayamāṇas tasmin giri-vare samantāt sakala-loka-svastaya āste

ŚB 5.20.41

आकल्पमेवं वेषं गत एष भगवानात्मयोगमायया विरचितविविधलोकयात्रागोपीयायेत्यर्थ:

ākalpam evaṁ veṣaṁ gata eṣa bhagavān ātma-yogamāyayā viracita-vividha-loka-yātrā-gopīyāyety arthaḥ.

Ref – I (v) :: Canto 5, Chapter 16 verse 28 and

and Canto 8, Chapter 5, verses 17 & 18

ŚB 5.16.28

मेरोर्मूर्धनि भगवत आत्मयोनेर्मध्यत उपक्‍ल‍ृप्तां पुरीमयुतयोजनसाहस्रीं समचतुरस्रां शातकौम्भीं वदन्ति ॥

meror mūrdhani bhagavata ātma-yoner madhyata upakḷptāṁ purīm ayuta-yojana-sāhasrīṁ sama-caturasrāṁ śātakaumbhīṁ vadanti.

ŚB 8.5.17-18

निशाम्यैतत् सुरगणा महेन्द्रवरुणादय: ।
नाध्यगच्छन्स्वयं मन्त्रैर्मन्त्रयन्तो विनिश्चितम् ॥ १७ ॥
ततो ब्रह्मसभां जग्मुर्मेरोर्मूर्धनि सर्वश: ।
सर्वं विज्ञापयां चक्रु: प्रणता: परमेष्ठिने ॥ १८ ॥

niśāmyaitat sura-gaṇā mahendra-varuṇādayaḥ
nādhyagacchan svayaṁ mantrair mantrayanto viniścitam

tato brahma-sabhāṁ jagmur meror mūrdhani sarvaśaḥ
sarvaṁ vijñāpayāṁ cakruḥ praṇatāḥ parameṣṭhine

Ref – I (vi) :: Canto 9, chapter 1, verse 25

ŚB 9.1.25

सुकुमारवनं मेरोरधस्तात् प्रविवेश ह ।
यत्रास्ते भगवाञ्छर्वो रममाण: सहोमया ॥

sukumāra-vanaṁ meror adhastāt praviveśa ha
yatrāste bhagavāñ charvo ramamāṇaḥ sahomayā

adiyen do not know sanskrit. But I could see the key words mentioned in my first post appearing in these verses.

I request those who know sanskrit to translate these verses.

adiyen

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ElayaAlwar & enpanifan swamis, 
adiyen is providing the ref of the verses and the verses themselves against adiyen's references. 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
Ref - I (i)   ::              Canto 10, Chapter 1 – Verses 17 & 19 
 
 
 
 
ŚB 10.1.17 
 
 
भूमिर्द‍ृप्तनृपव्याजदैत्यानीकशतायुतै: । आक्रान्ता भूरिभारेण ब्रह्माणं शरणं ययौ ॥ 
bhūmir dṛpta-nṛpa-vyāja-daityānīka-śatāyutaiḥ ākrāntā bhūri-bhāreṇa brahmāṇaṁ śaraṇaṁ yayau 
 
 
 
 
ŚB 10.1.19 
 
 
ब्रह्मा तदुपधार्याथ सह देवैस्तया सह । जगाम सत्रिनयनस्तीरं क्षीरपयोनिधे: ॥ 
brahmā tad-upadhāryātha saha devais tayā saha jagāma sa-tri-nayanas tīraṁ kṣīra-payo-nidheḥ 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
Ref - I (ii) ::                 Canto 5, Chapter 20 – Verse 24 
 
 
 
 
ŚB 5.20.24 
 
 
एवं पुरस्तात्क्षीरोदात्परित उपवेशित: शाकद्वीपो द्वात्रिंशल्लक्षयोजनायाम: समानेन च दधिमण्डोदेन परीतो यस्मिन् शाको नाम महीरुह: स्वक्षेत्रव्यपदेशको यस्य ह महासुरभिगन्धस्तं द्वीपमनुवासयति ॥ 
evaṁ purastāt kṣīrodāt parita upaveśitaḥ śākadvīpo dvātriṁśal-lakṣa-yojanāyāmaḥ samānena ca dadhi-maṇḍodena parīto yasmin śāko nāma mahīruhaḥ sva-kṣetra-vyapadeśako yasya ha mahā-surabhi-gandhas taṁ dvīpam anuvāsayati 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
Ref - I (iii) ::                    Canto 5, Chapter 20 – Verse 39          
 
 
 
 
ŚB 5.20.39 
 
 
तदुपरिष्टाच्चतसृष्वाशास्वात्मयोनिनाखिलजगद्गुरुणाधिनिवेशिता ये द्विरदपतय ऋषभ: पुष्करचूडो वामनोऽपराजित इति सकललोकस्थितिहेतव: ॥ 
tad-upariṣṭāc catasṛṣv āśāsvātma-yoninākhila-jagad-guruṇādhiniveśitā ye dvirada-pataya ṛṣabhaḥ puṣkaracūḍo vāmano ’parājita iti sakala-loka-sthiti-hetavaḥ. 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
Ref - I (iv) ::             Canto 5, Chapter 20 - verses 40 & 41 
 
 
 
 
ŚB 5.20.40 
 
 
तेषां स्वविभूतीनां लोकपालानां च विविधवीर्योपबृंहणाय भगवान् परममहापुरुषो महाविभूतिपतिरन्तर्याम्यात्मनो विशुद्धसत्त्वं धर्मज्ञानवैराग्यैश्वर्याद्यष्टमहासिद्ध्युपलक्षणं विष्वक्सेनादिभि: स्वपार्षदप्रवरै: परिवारितो निजवरायुधोपशोभितैर्निजभुजदण्डै: सन्धारय-माणस्तस्मिन् गिरिवरे समन्तात्सकललोकस्वस्तय आस्ते ॥ 
teṣāṁ sva-vibhūtīnāṁ loka-pālānāṁ ca vividha-vīryopabṛṁhaṇāya bhagavān parama-mahā-puruṣo mahā-vibhūti-patir antaryāmy ātmano viśuddha-sattvaṁ dharma-jñāna-vairāgyaiśvaryādy-aṣṭa-mahā-siddhy-upalakṣaṇaṁ viṣvaksenādibhiḥ sva-pārṣada-pravaraiḥ parivārito nija-varāyudhopaśobhitair nija-bhuja-daṇḍaiḥ sandhārayamāṇas tasmin giri-vare samantāt sakala-loka-svastaya āste 
 
 
 
 
ŚB 5.20.41 
 
 
आकल्पमेवं वेषं गत एष भगवानात्मयोगमायया विरचितविविधलोकयात्रागोपीयायेत्यर्थ: 
ākalpam evaṁ veṣaṁ gata eṣa bhagavān ātma-yogamāyayā viracita-vividha-loka-yātrā-gopīyāyety arthaḥ. 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
Ref - I (v) ::              Canto 5, Chapter 16 verse 28 and 
                         and Canto 8, Chapter 5, verses 17 & 18 
 
 
 
 
ŚB 5.16.28 
 
 
मेरोर्मूर्धनि भगवत आत्मयोनेर्मध्यत उपक्‍ल‍ृप्तां पुरीमयुतयोजनसाहस्रीं समचतुरस्रां शातकौम्भीं वदन्ति ॥ 
meror mūrdhani bhagavata ātma-yoner madhyata upakḷptāṁ purīm ayuta-yojana-sāhasrīṁ sama-caturasrāṁ śātakaumbhīṁ vadanti. 
 
 
 
 
ŚB 8.5.17-18 
 
 
निशाम्यैतत् सुरगणा महेन्द्रवरुणादय: । नाध्यगच्छन्स्वयं मन्त्रैर्मन्त्रयन्तो विनिश्चितम् ॥ १७ ॥ ततो ब्रह्मसभां जग्मुर्मेरोर्मूर्धनि सर्वश: । सर्वं विज्ञापयां चक्रु: प्रणता: परमेष्ठिने ॥ १८ ॥ 
niśāmyaitat sura-gaṇā mahendra-varuṇādayaḥ nādhyagacchan svayaṁ mantrair mantrayanto viniścitam 
tato brahma-sabhāṁ jagmur meror mūrdhani sarvaśaḥ sarvaṁ vijñāpayāṁ cakruḥ praṇatāḥ parameṣṭhine 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
Ref - I (vi) ::                   Canto 9, chapter 1, verse 25 
 
 
 
 
ŚB 9.1.25 
 
 
सुकुमारवनं मेरोरधस्तात् प्रविवेश ह । यत्रास्ते भगवाञ्छर्वो रममाण: सहोमया ॥ 
sukumāra-vanaṁ meror adhastāt praviveśa ha yatrāste bhagavāñ charvo ramamāṇaḥ sahomayā 
 
 
 
 
  
adiyen do not know sanskrit. But I could see the key words mentioned in my first post appearing in these verses. 
I request those who know sanskrit to translate these verses. 
adiyen

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SriVaishnava dasan 0 0 on June 17, 2021

ElayaAlwar swamy,

You have been silent for quite some time, without posting. Can we know the reason for your silence.

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Bhupatidasan 0 0 on June 21, 2021

Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha

Question I :: Brahma, Vishnu and Siva will exist till maha pralayam. If they reside in Bhu lokam, then after Naimithika Pralayam when three lokas are dissolved where they will be positioned?. Considering the points (iii), (iv) and (v), this issue is resolved w.r.to Brahma and Vishnu. But still how about Siva?.

– Bhagawan Shiva stays in Kashi. The city is safe from Pralayas. This is famous saying and everyone knows it. I heard from elders.

Question 2 :: Does Brahma and Vishnu reside at both the places?. adiyen is bit hesitant to accept concept of omnipresence here. Yes. They can be omnipresent, but in this case we are taking about residence, which is a fixed location.

– Yes, there are many Lord Brahmas. You can refer Srimad Bhagawatam.

Question 3 :: Each andam has one Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. Considering, Brahma and Siva are jeevatmas, whether their atmas are different in various andams?.

– Don’t know. Some different explanation exists.

III. Dhruva lokam

a. adiyen read Brahma, Vishnu and Siva reside in Dhruva lokam. But could not recollect the reference.

– As I heard from elders, Lord Vishnu stays in Dhruva Nakshatra. Some call it as embassy of Vaikunta.

Apologies for my Apacharas etc

Namo Narayana

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Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha 
 
Question I :: Brahma, Vishnu and Siva will exist till maha pralayam. If they reside in Bhu lokam, then after Naimithika Pralayam when three lokas are dissolved where they will be positioned?. Considering the points (iii), (iv) and (v), this issue is resolved w.r.to Brahma and Vishnu. But still how about Siva?. 
 
- Bhagawan Shiva stays in Kashi. The city is safe from Pralayas. This is famous saying and everyone knows it. I heard from elders. 
 
Question 2 :: Does Brahma and Vishnu reside at both the places?. adiyen is bit hesitant to accept concept of omnipresence here. Yes. They can be omnipresent, but in this case we are taking about residence, which is a fixed location. 
 
- Yes, there are many Lord Brahmas. You can refer Srimad Bhagawatam. 
 
Question 3 :: Each andam has one Brahma, Vishnu and Siva. Considering, Brahma and Siva are jeevatmas, whether their atmas are different in various andams?. 
 
- Don't know. Some different explanation exists. 
 
III. Dhruva lokam 
 
a. adiyen read Brahma, Vishnu and Siva reside in Dhruva lokam. But could not recollect the reference. 
 
- As I heard from elders, Lord Vishnu stays in Dhruva Nakshatra. Some call it as embassy of Vaikunta. 
 
Apologies for my Apacharas etc 
 
Namo Narayana

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enpanifan 0 0 on June 21, 2021

Srimate Raaamanujaye Namaha,

Came across this poster , which is supposedly based on descriptions on Bhagawatham.

https://indiodysseyshop.com/products/brahma-jyoti-poster

(There are multiple pictures in the above link, which need to be viewed separately to fully view the poster)

It depicts 14 lokas in each Andam with a separate Brahma. Lord Vishnu and Shiva are also manifest inside each andam.

There are innumerable such andams in the leela vibhuti.

Beyond this is Brahma jyothi , spiritual effulgence (destination of monists)

Beyond this are spiritual planets , in the first layer Kailash, residence of Lord Shiva is depicted.

Then there are several Vaikunta planets depicted.

I hope this depiction is based on descriptions provided in Bhagawatam and other related scriptures. I have not had the opportunity to read all the exact verses based on which this poster has been made.

But based on what i have heard from different sources, this depiction appears to be correct.

But given the huge size of leela vibhuthi and nitya vibhuti we are trying to describe and understand and given the small capacity of each of us, there could be some differences and variations in each of our understanding..

But one thing which is conclusively clear is we are too insignificant and there is a eternal place where we should head towards to.

Adiyen

Thirukachidaasanudasan.

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Srimate Raaamanujaye Namaha, 
Came across this poster , which is supposedly based on descriptions on Bhagawatham. 
<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="https://indiodysseyshop.com/products/brahma-jyoti-poster">https://indiodysseyshop.com/products/brahma-jyoti-poster</a> 
(There are multiple pictures in the above link, which need to be viewed separately to fully view the poster) 
It depicts 14 lokas in each Andam with a separate Brahma. Lord Vishnu and Shiva are also manifest   inside each andam. 
There are innumerable such andams in the leela vibhuti. 
Beyond this is Brahma jyothi , spiritual effulgence (destination of monists) 
Beyond this  are spiritual planets , in the first layer Kailash, residence of Lord Shiva is depicted. 
Then there are several Vaikunta planets depicted. 
I hope this depiction is based on descriptions provided in Bhagawatam and other related scriptures.  I have not had the opportunity to read all the exact verses based on which this poster has been made. 
But based on what i have heard from different sources, this depiction appears to be correct. 
But given the huge size of leela vibhuthi and nitya vibhuti we are trying to describe and understand and given the small capacity of each of us, there could be some differences and variations in each of our understanding.. 
But one thing which is conclusively clear is we are too insignificant and there is a eternal place where we should head towards to. 
Adiyen 
Thirukachidaasanudasan.

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SriVaishnava dasan 5 0 on June 21, 2021

Namaskaram.

The link

https://indiodysseyshop.com/products/brahma-jyoti-posterFrom enpanifan

when opened displays “Access Denied! You are not authorized to access this site.”

I am unable to see the details. Is there any alternate site?.

adiyen

enpanifan 0 on June 21, 2021

You can try this link.

https://blservices.com/product/brahma-jyoti-poster/

Even in the earlier link you can try copying the link and pasting it in browser instead of direct click on the link.

Adiyen

SriVaishnava dasan 0 on June 21, 2021

Thank you for sharing the link.

I have copied and pasted the earlier link, though it opens but immediately gives the message “Access Denied! You are not authorized to access this site”.

The second link works and the details are readable after zooming. In fact, I have this poster, but I could get the details from this link. I will go through them. One interesting information is that Kailsha is depicted beyond Viraja river.

adiyen

vellukudidasan 0 on June 23, 2021

அடியேன் நமஸ்காரம்
திருபாணழ்வார் முற்றும் உண்ட கன்டம் என்கிறார் இதில் பிரம்மா சிவன் அனைவரும் அடக்கம்
திருமங்கை ஆழ்வார் ஓர் பாசுரத்தில் யார் பரபிரம்மம் என்று அறுதியிட அனைவரும் பெருமாள் எச்சில் பட்டவர் என்கிறார் அந்த பாசுரம் கிடைத்தால் பதிவு செய்யவும்

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enpanifan 0 on June 23, 2021

Srimate Raamanujaye Namaha,

Swamy, even in the above depiction(poster) within each andam , there is a representation/manifestation of Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva and Lord Brahma, so this fact correlates with the above poster and the reference you have provided above.

But the other facts in the poster are based on Bhagawatam + Brahma samihita.. Let me try to find the actual verses on which they have built upon this poster, if Sri Krishna desires so.

I understand that SriVaishnava perspective is slightly different than that of Brahma samihita. It OK swamy i just posted it as Jayaram swamy requested for this info. (I just shared another perspective also from a vaishnava parampara).

(Also the second part on who is Parabrahmam is not the point being debated here..That is a common conclusion between Gaudiya Vaishnava and Sri Vaishnva literature that Sri Krishna is the parabrahmam, there is no confusion in this aspect)

Adiyen

Thirukachidaasanudasan

Srimate Raamanujaye Namaha, 
Swamy, even in the above depiction(poster) within each andam , there is a representation/manifestation of Lord Vishnu, Lord Shiva and Lord Brahma, so this fact correlates with the above poster and the reference you have provided above. 
But the other facts in the poster are based on Bhagawatam + Brahma samihita.. Let me try to find the actual verses on which they have built upon this poster, if Sri Krishna desires so. 
I understand that SriVaishnava perspective is slightly different than that of Brahma samihita. It OK swamy i just posted it as Jayaram swamy requested for this info. (I just shared another perspective also from a vaishnava parampara). 
(Also the second part on who is Parabrahmam is not the point being debated here..That is a common conclusion between Gaudiya Vaishnava and Sri Vaishnva literature that Sri Krishna is the parabrahmam, there is no confusion in this aspect) 
 Adiyen 
Thirukachidaasanudasan

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SriVaishnava dasan 0 on June 23, 2021

Yes. I believe this poster is not as per vishishtadvaita.

adiyen

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enpanifan 1 0 on June 23, 2021

Srimate Raamanujaye Namaha,

Jayaram swamy, Vishistadvaita philosophy/other philosophy is for defining the relationship between Paramatma/Bhagwaan and cit and acit. So all the philosophies differ on how they view the relationship between Bhagwaan, cit and acit.

So i do not feel the differences we notice in the poster is due to difference in philosophy. But based on which puraanas/text that are used to describe the geography of Leela vibuthi and nitya vibhuthi.

If we see the description of andam of 14 lokas it matches in both school of thoughts as both are based on description given in Bhagawatam. (In this description , Lord Shiva manifests as a son of Brahma within the andam, in both schools of thought).

But in the description of nitya vibhuti, Gaudiya vaishnava parampara uses Brahma Samihita, which was revealed only few hundred years ago, ( but interestingly in a temple maintained by Sri Vaishnavas – Adi Kesava Perumaal temple).

In Sri Vaishnavism, the description of Leela vibhuti also matches with what we see in the poster when we focus on one Vaikunta planet alone.

But the Brahma Samhita description has additional info on Goloka, Kailash etc..

So i would not say one is differing from the other.. One description focused in detail on one particular aspect and the other description is focusing on another aspect..

And i am sure there are infinite more aspects of Leela vibhuthi which we will never be able to fathom.

For example if we see a house and describe in detail about the prayer room of the house and another person describes about the different rooms of the house.. both are valid and true.

This is how i reconcile myself when i come across “differences” in different school of thoughts.. so they are in effect – not differences.. only different focus or perspectives.. but since both are spiritual, we cannot claim one description is the best.

Adiyen

Thirukachidaasanudasan

SriVaishnava dasan 0 on June 23, 2021

enpanifan swamy,

Vishistadvaita philosophy/other philosophy is for defining the relationship between Paramatma/Bhagwaan and cit and acitFrom enpanifan

I think it is not only the relationship but also about defining the supreme.

Is not depiction of Kailsha beyond Viraja river a big difference, since if one crosses viraja, he is supposed to shed his all karmas and get mukti. I am only considering vishishtadvaita here.

Depiction of Leele vibhudhi is as per Bhagavatam, except Durga devi and Jadananda.

This poster is available in one of the sites of Prabhupada. Hence, the details given at planes beyond viraja are portrayed accordingly.

The above points are based on my very limited knowledge in spirituality. adiyen would like to mention that I am not an exponent in any / different philosophies and sampradayams.

adiyen

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Srimate Raamanujaye Namaha, 
Jayaram swamy, Vishistadvaita philosophy/other philosophy  is for defining the relationship between Paramatma/Bhagwaan and cit and acit. So all the philosophies differ on how they view the relationship between Bhagwaan, cit and acit. 
So i do not feel the differences we notice in the poster is due to difference in philosophy. But based on which puraanas/text that are used to describe the geography of Leela vibuthi and nitya vibhuthi. 
If we see the description of andam of 14 lokas it matches in both school of thoughts as both are based on description given in Bhagawatam. (In this description , Lord Shiva manifests as a son of Brahma within the andam, in both schools of thought). 
But in the description of nitya vibhuti, Gaudiya vaishnava parampara uses Brahma Samihita, which was revealed only few hundred years ago, ( but interestingly in a temple maintained by Sri Vaishnavas - Adi Kesava Perumaal temple).  
In Sri Vaishnavism, the description of Leela vibhuti also matches with what we see in the poster when we focus on one Vaikunta planet alone. 
But the Brahma Samhita description has additional info on Goloka, Kailash etc..  
So i would not say one is differing from the other.. One description focused in detail on one particular aspect and the other description is focusing on another aspect.. 
And i am sure there are infinite more aspects of Leela vibhuthi which we will never be able to fathom. 
For example if we see a house and describe in detail about the prayer room of the house and another person describes about the different rooms of the house.. both are valid and true. 
This is how i reconcile myself when i come across "differences" in different school of thoughts.. so they are in effect - not differences.. only different focus or perspectives.. but since both are spiritual, we cannot claim one description is the best. 
Adiyen 
Thirukachidaasanudasan

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