Brahmam, Jiva and Jadam

Updated on August 24, 2017 in Holy Books
70 on August 16, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams to all

Let Adiyen be open and honest about this post.

Below is not a question or doubt of Adiyen. Just a food for thought in this beautiful forum where people are interested to know about Perumal and Thayaar. Open to discussion.

Upanishads say, “Only God was there at the beginning and everything came from Him”.

This literally means everyone and everything is Brahmam as only He was there at the beginning. But, it has an inner meaning.

At the same time, Brahmam, Jiva and Jada are different from each other. They are all distinct entities. This is the essence of Tridandam showing three realities and this is also approved by Upanishads. None of these three are illusion. All three are real and different from each other. Vedanta says all three are sourceless.

So, on one hand, only God was present at beginning and everything came from Him. So, everything should be God. On other hand, Jiva and Jada are different from Brahmam and they are equally sourceless.

How is both possible? It’s definitely answerable.

Vedas are Vedas because they are non-contradicting. Above two are definitely non-contradicting though they look contradicting. Then, how to connect them?

Bagavad Ramanujar and all Vedantic Acharyas have explained this.

Clue: God is material cause (Upadana Karana), effective cause (Nimitta Karana) and supporting cause (Sahakari Karana). He is only cause but not transformation.

Adiyen is not certainly qualified to say which is right or wrong. But, wish to enjoy the discussions by devotees of the forum.

I believe such topics can be raised in Satsangam for discussion about Baghavan. If this is strictly for honest questions only, kindly ignore above and please warn me so that Adiyen will not repeat it in future.

Daasanu Daasan

 
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Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram Swami!

 

Per Vishishtadvaitam, Achit and Chit are ‘body’ of ‘Easwara’ (Narayana). So ‘Brahmam’ refers to all 3 inclusive – Narayana (Easwara), Jivas (Chit) and Prakruti (Achit). While ‘Brahmam’ is inclusive of the ‘source’ of material nature, the transformation of material nature (mahat tata, mahan/budhi/ahankaram then 3 modes of material nature and so on) happens through which the ‘creation’ of the universe starts.

 

Why Jivas get in touch with ‘material’ nature is a separate topic of discussion for which same philosophies – Visishtadvaitam/’Acintya beda-abeda’ (Bhagavan same and different from Jivaatma, at the same time) are used.

 

Below are few supporting verses on the ‘eternity’ of Achit & Chit.

 

Bhagavad Gita 13.20 — Material nature and the living entities should be understood to be beginningless. Their transformations and the modes of matter are products of material nature.

Bhagavad Gita 15.7 — The living entities in this conditioned world are My eternal fragmental parts. Due to conditioned life, they are struggling very hard with the six senses, which include the mind.

 

Bhagavad Gita 7.4 — Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intelligence and false ego – all together these eight constitute My separated material energies.

 
Bhagavad Gita 7.5 — Besides these, O mighty-armed Arjuna, there is another, superior energy of Mine, which comprises the living entities who are exploiting the resources of this material, inferior nature.
 
Please correct if there is any misunderstanding.
 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 17, 2017

Danyosmi Swamy. As stated already, Adiyen is not qualified to say if it is right or wrong.

However, thank you for detail explanation.

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan

on August 17, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swamy

One more question. In fact, it is same question again.

“Brahmam is Shariri of Jiva and Jada”, agreed. Brahmam has 5 forms. In the state of Antaryami, He is Shariri of Jiva and Jada. But, His other forms like Para roopa and may be even Vyuha roopas are infinite and cannot be understood. Though there is no difference between His 5 forms, His real form is infinite. His infinite attributes constitute His Sharira.

Now the question. Upanishads say only Brahmam was there at the beginning. Then where from these Jiva and Jada came? In reality, Vedanta also says all three are actually eternally different and are sourceless. If Jada and Jiva are also eternal, then how come Brahmam alone was present at the beginning?

Hope it is certainly not a question like hen came from egg or egg came from hen. Because, this is only one way. Everyone and everything came from Brahmam only.

Clue: Vedanta quotes a spider spinning web to understand God, His creation and God as cause of creation.

on August 19, 2017

Sri:

Achit/Jada also came from perumal only.

“Thoonil irundhu Perumal purapattAlum, thoonum perumAlukkul adangum. Thoonukkul perumAl adanga maataan” – Krishna Premi Swamy

Adiyen’s observation:
Achit tattvan dissolves into chit.

AgyanAm nyAnathAl adangividum

The pillar dissolves into Vishnu, Vishnu does not dissolve into pillar. (Vishnu= Knowledge and Pillar= Ignorance)

For this one:
“If Jada and Jiva are also eternal,”
Our human body transforms but soul does not transform. So soul is eternal and body is subject to change and not eternal. There is no specific identity to something which keeps changing. So the question of eternal being ruled out here.

Out of these janmAs do I identify myself as Vikram or elephant or ??

That’s why I asked what do we identify ourselves as, in moksha in dharma sandeha? I got theoritical answer body, senses, Ahankaram etc gets erased till vraja nadhi. Ideally I going to moksha is not at all relevant as I is self surrendered and no seperate identity required.

If I need to care my Athma going to moksham then it’s utter nonsense as there is nothing as my Athma. So you and me are same when it comes to moksham.

One Athma reaches his abode that’s all. It’s neither yours not mine because we cannot differentiate.

The drop getting mixed into ocean. “PRALAYAM”. Layam means mixing.

I am okay for healthy debates in this context with my limited ignorant knowledge.

For this statement:
“Clue: God is material cause (Upadana Karana), effective cause (Nimitta Karana) and supporting cause (Sahakari Karana). He is only cause but not transformation”

He is self manifestation not transformation.

Everything happens within himself. That’s the problem for us to understand. We have never witnessed something like that before.

Spiderweb is just an example for us to understand from real world. It creates the web from itself and dissolves it into itself.

But it has space to spit the web thread. Perumal has none beyond him.

Such a perumAl is infinite. So no limitations to him. His limitations are unknown to him as there is no such limitation.

“Moovulagu undu umizhndha mudhalvan” – Enga thuppuvaan? Idam illaiye!

Mudhalvan = Primordial
Moovulagu = Nithya, ubhaya, Leela vibhuthi

If Perumal needs to expose spider web where will he do? There is Nothing else other than him. There is no space beyond him.

He is “avikAran”.

“avikArAya shuddhAya nithyAya ParamaAthmanEy” – SahasranAmam
Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy explains “avikAran” in sahasranAma upanyasam beautifully.

“Na tasya pratima asti”
“There is no likeness of Him.”
[Svetasvatara Upanishad 4:19]3

Being quoted by ignorant other religions as to “no image of God”.

Let’s decode via vishistAdvaitam, there is nothing else other than god

“Ekameva adwitheeyam brahma” then where will such image fall?

If there is a moon, the light reflected on moon needs a river to reflect.

Here the moon , light and river all three are him. Where will such image reflect into?

Therefore ” Na tasya Prathima asthi”

Let those guys read this answer and see if it can be countered or making sense to them.

He is so big, that biggie will get into a NANO thread

“Kanni NUN siru thAmbinAl kattunna panniya perumAyan”

He is so small, baby Krishna but will show “Vishwaroopam”

It’s called aghatithagatana sAmarthyam

Aata thooki maatula podrathu
Maata thooki aatula podrathu
– Brahma mohanam Krishna leela in his Avatharam

He was cow, he was shepherd (Gopalan), he was himself.

“YAARUM PANNALA” – Srimushnam Andavan

Where will that fellow transform into? He is
“anthar bahischa tat sarvam vyApya nArAyana sthitha”:”

He is in , out and as is everywhere.

It’s called one stone 3 mangoes

1 Perumal 3 identities or perspective.

Advaitham, Dwaitam, vishistAdvaitam
Chit, achit , eshwaran

Avlo dhan

Dhanyosmi for letting adiyen talk few words about the greatest of the greatest great!

Please forgive mistakes Swamis

Dasanudasan

on August 19, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swami

Even in state of Moksha, Jiva does not dissolve in Ishwara. This is statement of Upanishads. He only attains Layam. We are incapable of differentiating but they are different only.

If I go to Tirumala, I attain layam with Lord Srinivasa and forget myself and surroundings that one minute. So, that one minute, I am in Advaita Anubhavam. But, it’s only an Anubhavam. I certainly don’t mingle with Perumal and vanish.

Father of Advaitam, Adishankara Bagavad Padar itself states that Jiva is comparable to Brahmam only in terms of bliss in Moksha and not in other aspects.

Listened to Dasa Upanishad CD by Shri Velukkudi Swami. He also says, if water droplets mingle with water, water level has to increase or decrease. But, there is no increase or decrease in Brahmam. So, there is no such dissolution in Brahmam. All three realities are always different. But, Brahmam is wide spread and omni present. This is the stand of Vedanta. While Jiva and Moola Prakriti are held by Perumal, they are yet different.

If only Brahmam existed at beginning, then how did Jivas separated from Brahmam fell into karma and agyanam. These cannot be answered. As per Vedanta, Jiva, Moola Prakriti and Brahmam are three eternal realities. If we say they come from Brahmam, then other two are not eternal.

Still Brahmam is material cause because He is Antaryami always.

Let us take an example similar to ocean. There is a crowd of 1 crore people and we are looking for 1 person in it. It may not be possible to find him as he lost identity and mingle with crowd. But, as an individual he is always individual and not vanished. Similar applies to water droplets in ocean.

So water droplets is not real mingling but only losing identity.

All these are from Pramanas like Upanishads and Brahma Sutras.

on August 19, 2017

Adiyen wish to share line by line views but it will expand the length of answer

“Even in state of Moksha, Jiva does not dissolve in Ishwara. ” – Dissolve means not in literal terms

“Ahamannam Ahamannam AhamannAdho” – I am your food you are my food. – Veda

on August 19, 2017

“We are incapable of differentiating but they are different only.” – True Perumal gives equal status but we don’t merge into him. TAtparyaChandrikA.

on August 19, 2017

“If I go to Tirumala, I attain layam with Lord Srinivasa and forget myself and surroundings that one minute. So, that one minute, I am in Advaita Anubhavam. But, it’s only an Anubhavam. I certainly don’t mingle with Perumal and vanish.” – Every night in your deep sleep state your athma gets close to Perumal. Sushupti (Deep sleep). It happens daily not only at tirumala. We don’t realise in jagruth state.

on August 19, 2017

“if water droplets mingle with water, water level has to increase or decrease. But, there is no increase or decrease in Brahmam” – He is avikAran. He is not subject to change. He is self manifested.

on August 19, 2017

“So, there is no such dissolution in Brahmam. All three realities are always different. But, Brahmam is wide spread and omni present. This is the stand of Vedanta. While Jiva and Moola Prakriti are held by Perumal, they are yet different.”

– May be devar talking strongly from Madhwa standpoint. In Bhagavath Gita Krishna said “you will become what you think of during death” it doesn’t mean we will become Krishna if we think of Krishna during death.

We are Equalized but we don’t become brahmam.

TAtparyaChandrikA.

on August 19, 2017

“If only Brahmam existed at beginning, then how did Jivas separated from Brahmam fell into karma and agyanam. These cannot be answered” – Please refer

Chandogya Upanishad sath vidhya prakaranam ‘sadheva soumya idham agra aaseeth ekameve adhvitheeyam’ – Perumal Sath aagavey irundhaar Krishna Premi Anna

http://www.ibiblio.org/sripedia/oppiliappan/archives/apr06/msg00196.html

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2 on August 19, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams,

Ok. Here is Adiyen’s understanding. Please correct if it’s wrong.

Let us take a Mahapralaya.

12000 Deva years or 43,20,000 (12000×360) human years is 1 Chaturyuga. 1000 such cycles is one day for Chaturmuka Brahma and similar such span is one night.

During day time, creation continues and during his night, there would be no creation.

Life span of Brahma is 100 such years. At the end of 100 years, Mahapralaya occurs and Brahma himself reaches Lord.

How creation will take place without Chaturmuka Brahma? A new Jiva has to be assigned to this post.

Till such time, all Jivas and Jada are held by the Lord and those are in Union with Him yet they are different from Him.

So, there are three eternal realities different from each other. They are Brahmam, Jivatma and Moola Prakriti (source of creation). World we see is Anithyam. But, Moola Prakriti is eternal.

A spider spins a web from it’s body. Web comes from it’s spinneret glands. When the purpose is over, spider again withdraws the web inside. So, it is an act of spitting and swallowing. The web which is spit may have some amsa of Spider as it was in Union with spider but the web and the spider are not one and the same.

Similarly, when Mahapralaya occurs, all Jivas in non-functional forms and Jada in the form of Moolaprakriti are held by Lord Himself.

Now before starting the basic creation and assigning new Chaturmuka Brahma, only Lord was there at the beginning and He creates everything from Himself. Because Jiva and Jada were in Union with Him yet they are different from Him. Then Jada is created from Moola Prakriti and Jivatma are released into Samsara based on their Karma. Only liberated souls reach Vaikuntam and are not affected by these.

Hence only Lord was there at the beginning and He created from Himself. But, Jada cannot be compared with Him. Though Jiva has few qualities like consciouness, bliss etc, Jiva and Brahmam are eternally different and Jiva doesn’t become Brahmam Himself even in released state. Jiva can only become equal to Brahmam is few aspects. So, there are three eternal realities.

Otherwise, all the three, Brahmam, Jivatma and Moola Prakriti are sourceless and endless. Karma of a Jivatma is also sourceless but that has an end at the time of liberation, for a specific Jivatma who attains it. But, all three realities were in Union at the beginning yet they remain different.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 19, 2017

There is no Sristi without Brahmam. Creation is done from Moola Prakriti by Brahmam. At the same time, creation happens as Brahmam is Antaryami. So, raw material is Antaryami Brahmam but in reality, Brahmam and Jada are different. So, Brahmam is material cause but not material transformation.

on August 19, 2017

“Till such time, all Jivas and Jada are held by the Lord and those are in Union with Him yet they are different from Him.”

When it’s in that state differentiation cannot be appreciated. Only after creation differential arises. It’s my opinion.

ChappAthi maavu example by Sri U.Ve. Villur NadAthur KarunAkarAchAr Swamy in TAtparyaChandrikA kAlakshEpam

ChappAthi maavu is same but one urundai is different when seperated. Corrects?

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0 on August 19, 2017

Adiyen think Velukkudi Swamy should create a blog to share our thoughts

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10 on August 19, 2017

May I request Shri Velukkudi Swamy to post an audio on this, in such a manner that it is clearly understood by all through simple examples. Swamy, you have already done this in your CDs.

on August 19, 2017

Appo vitrungo adhan cd irukke 🙂

on August 19, 2017

Athatho Brahma Jignyasah. Brahma Araichi panlamnu parthen. Devarir eaapadi soldriro appadi. Idho ippove vittudren.

on August 20, 2017

Swami,
Adiyen adhukkaga sollala. Topic vast madhri theriyadhu. Adhan Swami cd la explain pannitaarey thirumba en Pani la specific audience Ku cater pandra madhri ayidumey wider reach affect agum as there will be starters..

Also people are requested to buy CD and listen as those purchases are going to Sath kAryams adhan

May be an intro can be given in EnPani & not the intricacies

Dasanudasan

on August 20, 2017

Swami,

Adiyen was careful in stating differentiation does not occur between mukhtAthmAs.

What’s difference between Srinivasan Pranesh Swamy’s soul and adiyen’s soul in moksham?

Please explain

Dasanudasan
????

on August 20, 2017

Swamy,

Aneka Koti Namaskarams.

No tensions. Adiyen oru pechukkuthan sonnen. I too understand that Swami does Dharma Kainkaryams through these CDs. Adiyen Dasa Upanishadgalayum request pannalai. Only requested a 5 min audio in relation to our discussion.?

You are absolutely right Swami. You were careful in the statements. But, Adiyen’s question was slightly different. Adiyen discussed only about Brahma-Jiva-Jada bedha and not Jiva-Jiva bedha.

Swamy. Adiyen once told you that I am a Madhva by birth. So, may be you think I am always speaking from Dvaita Vedanta. Please forget that.

But, I am open to all three Philosophies. In fact, my life goal is to understand these three Siddhantas (Advaita, Visishtadvaita and Dvaita) and understand Vedanta as Vedanta.

Adishankararkum Ramanujarkum favoura pesi pala murai saka Madhvarkalidam Adiyen vaangi kattikondirukkiren.

Jiva Brahma bedham pesi Advaitikalidamum Vangikattindirukken.

Out of thousands and thousands of people only one starts doing Atma Vicharam. But, no one knows Atma completely as per Lord Krishna in Gita.

Advaitatin Thandhai Adishankarar endru dhan karudhapadugirar. Anal, Avarum Jiva Brahma bedam patri than pesugirar.

Jiva and Jiva may be equal in status in liberated state. You loose your name and I loose my name. Anandham may also be same. But, a Jiva differs from Jiva in Kainkaryam to Perumal.

As per Dvaita Sampardayam Brahma and Vayu do Pradhana Kainkaryams to Hari. But, here let me not take stand of Dvaita. Let us go by Srivaishnavam only.

If there is no difference among Muktatmas and the identity is completely lost, then why names like Anantan, Garudan, Vishwaksenar etc among Nithya Suris.

No one does Kainkaryam to Perumal like Thayaar. She enjoys highest level of Anandam by being one with Him.

Next is Seshan. Nindral Kudaiyam, Amarnthal Singasanamam etc. He is Pradana Kainkaryan among Nithya Suris.

Next comes Garuda, Vishwaksenar etc.

There is similarity in Jivas in terms of bliss but they don’t mingle. As you rightly said, they only lose identity.

However, the question raised was about differences between Brahmam and Jiva. It’s not between Jiva and Jiva. So, let us address the question directly without diversions.

It may be difficult to digest if I say Adishankara Bagavad Padar also differentiates Brahmam and Jiva even in state of liberation. Below is exactly from Shankara Brahma Sutra Bashya. I didn’t alter a single word from Advaita book I read.

“The released soul attains all lordly powers except the power of creation etc on account of Ishvara being the subject matter of all texts where creation etc are described and the released soul not being mentioned in that connection.

If it be said that the released soul attains absolute powers on account of direct teaching of scriptures, we say no, for the scriptures declare that the released souls attain Him who entrusts Sun etc with their offices and resides in those spheres.

And there is a form of the Supreme Lord which is beyond all created things, because so the scriptures declares His existence in a two fold form.

And thus Perception and Inference show.

And because of the indications in the scriptures of equality of the released soul with the Lord only with respect to enjoyment.

There is no return for these released souls on account of scriptural declaration to that effect”.

Brahma Sutras ends like this. Anal, Avarum Jiva Brahma bedam patri than pesugirar.

Brahma Sutras clearly states that Brahmam and Jiva can be compared only in terms of bliss but a Jiva does not attain absolute powers of Brahmam even in state of Moksha. We may debate that Chatur Muka Brahma and other Devas have ability to create. Still, they are capable of creating only because Brahmam is their Antaryami. Otherwise, they are not equal to Brahmam who is none other than Lord Sriman Narayana.

Further size of Jiva is analyzed in Brahma Sutras. Adi Shankarar says, if Jiva is infinite, then it means Jiva is omnipresent. One who is omnipresent cannot move as he has no place to move. But, as per scriptures, Jiva moves to various loka like Swarga, Naraka, Booloka etc. Hence infinity is applicable to Brahmam and a Jiva is only a size of anu (atom).

Thirumoolar says, “If we take a hair of cow and cut it into hundred thousand (that is one lakh parts), one part of that cut hair is the size of a Jiva”. But, Brahmam is always infinite.

In the state before creation, Jiva is in complete ignorance. Only released souls are not affected. Jada is insentient. But, Brahmam is 100% conscious always and omniscient. So, before Sristi, Jiva and Jada may be in union with Brahmam but they are certainly not comparable with Brahmam.

If all Jivas loses identity while in union with God before creation, then on what basis Jivas are segregated and Brahma with other Devas are identified for their posts.

Even in state of union with Brahmam before creation, Jivas remain separate from Brahmam and they are also differentiated from each other.

That’s why based on one’s good deeds, they get posts like Brahma, Rudra, Indra etc.

Nithya Samsaris, though in union with God before creation, fall into Samsara based on Karma.

When it comes to Jada, comparison with Brahmam is directly rejected by all Acharyas. Adishankara Bagavad Padar, in his Aparoksha Anubuthi directly states that one who compares Brahmam with Jada is Agyani. He also differentiates Brahmam and Jada.

Still not convinced. Below is from Sri Bashya of Bagavad Ramanujar.

ஜீவாத்மா முக்தியடைந்த பின், பரமாத்மாவை மிகவும் ஒத்த நிலையை அடைகிறான் என்பது உண்மையே. ஆனால் அவனுக்கு பரமாத்மாவைப்போல் உலகுகளை ஆக்கி, அளித்து, அழிக்கும் திறன் கிடையாது. ஏனெனில் பரமாத்மாவைப் பற்றிக் கூறுமிடங்களில் எல்லாம் பரமாத்மா தனித்திருந்து படைப்பவராகவே காட்டப்படுகிறது.

Bagavad Ramanujar sonnadhil tripthiya?

Further in Muktikopanishad, Hanuman asks Lord Rama about various types of Mukti.

Lord Rama says, Kaivalya Mukti is common for all. But, based on their Sadhanas their enjoyment in state of liberation differs into four types.

Anandham progresses more in below sequence of Muktis. They are Saloka, Sarubhya, Saameebya and Sayujya Mukti.

So, from my question, Brahmam is never completely equal to Jiva or Jada, may be in the state of union before creation or even in state of liberation.

Brahmam is Brahmam and He is the one supreme reality always in any situation.

This is not simply from Shri Madhvacharyar point of view, but from the view of even Adishankarar and Bagavad Ramanujar.

Brahma Sutras and Upanishads are Pramanas.

If you have even doubts in Upanishads, please read Brahma Sutras which are specifically given by Badarayanar to explain contradicting statements in Upanishads. Please buy some books rather than referring to internet. Books in my library and Archa Vigrahams are only property I felt worth spending for.

Swami. Adiyen type panni kai valikkaradhu. En manaivi pillai eppovum aanmigam pesinde irukkir engalai gavanikka mattengarirnu karichi kotra. Adiyene oru arai vekkadu. Idhulla aduthavalukku pramanathai eduthu solla adiyenukku gyanamillai. Pirarukku solvadhai vida Adiyen mudhalil gnanam adaivathu indriyamayadhadhu.

Edho Bagavanai pattri pesumbodhu indha ulagathaiye marandhu magizhchiyil thilaikiren. Otherwise, I never thought of debating with anyone. Only happiness i have in this world is thinking, speaking, gaining knowledge about Baghavan and doing Kainkaryams to His Archa. Iruppinum Samsara bhandam azhaikiradhu.

Thaane Bhagavanudaya sothu endru ninaikkamal adiyenai avargal sothaga ninaikirargal. Satru vittu koduthuthan pogavendi irukkiradhu.

Agave vidai perugiren. Manam punpadum padi yedhavadhu pesiyirundhal mannikkavum.

Adiyenin Achariyarana Shri Raghavendra Swamigal Thirupadhangalukkum pala Dharma kainkaryangal seiyyum adiyenin Manasiga Acharyar Shri Velukkudi Swamigalin Thirupadhangalukkum adiyenin aneka Koti namaskarangal.

Anmigathil sandheham iruppin thelivirkaga Shri Velukkudi Swamigalidam nichayam varuven. Enpani audiokkal moolam migundha payan perugiren.

Shri Velukkudi Swamigalidam indha jenmavileye Adiyen mukthiadaiya vendum endru aasirvadhikkumaru vendugiren. Acharyar recommendation illama Moksham kidaiyadhu.

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan Pranesh.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 20, 2017

Hare Krishna!

 

Aneha koti Namaskaram Swami! Swami’s situation is very common for most of the grahasthas. Adiyen gets bliss from Velukkudi swami’s upanyasams (specifically Bhagavad Gita & Vishnu sahasranamam) both are very ‘extensive’ discourses, in addition to the interactions with devotees through this forum.

 

May be we should plan on meeting in person sometime (at least on occasions like Janmashtami etc.,) OR Kinchitkaram runs programs where we can do kainkaryam to old temples (2 days or so in a year) where we can meet, discuss and also do kainkaryam in parallel. We can make it work based on the interest level & personal schedules.

 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 20, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swami

Sure. Let us plan. Swami, Adiyen’s samsara life is not similar to that of many.

Adiyen is actually running a WhatsApp group with 100 plus people where five of us present 5 scriptures parallely to all. One or two audios or text a week. Adiyen has taken Valmiki Ramayanam.

Adiyen also conduct monthly Satsangams where one Purana and one Upanishad is presented by two different people to around 20+ members who attend this face to face meet. Others also give their understanding. People from all three Philosophies attend. We collect Rs. 100 from attendees and use it for Darma Kainkaryams. Next Upanishad is Adiyen’s turn.

Plus Adiyen is also editing a magazine with articles from various authors of our group and publish them monthly for internal circulation. Adiyen also used to write 2 out of 5 articles.

Apart from above, Adiyen also have interests to write some books and leave for future generations with an attempt to unite Siddhantas and project as one Vedanta. Adiyenukku ippo nichayam thaguthi illai. Niraiverumo illayo Acharyarukkum Bagavanukkume velicham.

Ivai yellam adiyenukku Acharyar pichai alitha gnanathirku nandri kadan.

Apart from all these Adiyen also focus on family and have responsibilities to support them. Adiyen have 4 years old son and he knows Vedanta better than me. But, he expects me to spend time with him always. He gets angry if I study books or use mobile in his presence.

Job pressure above all. Adiyen is working as a Mechanical Engineer.

We have a miniature of Tirumala at home and my father does all Kainkaryams daily including Suprabhatam, Thomala Seva, Sahasranama Archana, weekly Abishekam, Ashtadala Pada Padmaradhanam, Kalyanotsavam, Arjita Brahmotsavam, Vasanthotsavam, Sahasradeepalankara, Ekantaseva, yearly Brahmotsavam etc for both Perumal and Thayaar as done in Tirumala. He is retired and free. His only desire is that his sons should learn them from him and continue Kainkaryams after his departure to lotus feet of Lord. So, this is prime responsibility of Adiyen and handover the Archa Vigrahams of Perumal and Thayaar to next generation as per his wish.

Past few weeks, I also started involving in Darma Sandeha discussion as Adiyen really enjoy them. So, family could not digest all totally sacrifice Adiyen. Otherwise, they permit Adiyen to involve in Aanmigam. Looks like their desires are also honest. That’s what Adiyen tried to convey but didn’t write in detail earlier.

I am very much interested to involve in group meetings, Upanyasam by Shri Velukkudi Swamy. I will surely involve in Dharma Kainkaryams as best as Adiyen could do.

I don’t even know why Adiyen is saying all these. But, this is Adiyen’s real situation.

Adiyen’s WhatsApp number is 9940134592. Mostly Kainkaryams done by Swamy are informed through Enpani. Apart from that, if something is there, kindly let Adiyen know. Adiyen will surely involve if it’s practically feasible at that situation.

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan Pranesh

on August 20, 2017

Actually Adiyen was interested in Sanyasa before marriage because Adiyen realized the pain of samsara. But, kalyanam pannikkama sanyasam vaanginda intha jenmathil unakku naan Moksham tharamattennu Thiruppernagar Bhattar mel avesamaga vandhu Perumal than sonnar. Perumal kattalaiyai eppadi meera mudiyum?

Samsarathulla vizhunthachu. Avalukku seiyya vendiyatha edirpaarpugala poorthi pannidhan aga vendum. Ellam Perumal Thaayar manapadi nadakattum.

on August 20, 2017

Hare Krishna!

 

Aneha Koti Namaskaram Swami!  Mannikkavum swami, Adiyen misunderstood that Swami is also a beginner like Adiyen. Whatever Swami is doing, is very exhaustive and must be inspiring to many beginners like Adiyen. “Unity in diversity” is what is our strength and swami’s attempt in unifying different Vedanta is a great attempt and Adiyen is sure the lord will shower his bless and mercy in making it successful.

 

Sorry swami, Adiyen is not in whatsapp, will make a note of the number. If swami can share the details of next monthly satsang, it will be Adiyen’s honor to join. Adiyen lives in Medavakkam.

 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 20, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swami

Adiyen is certainly a beginner only. No doubt in that. Brahmam can never be comprehended completely as He is infinite. We can only understand His infinity as a result of reading scriptures. We can only gain knowledge and follow to the extent we are capable of. Reward of that is Moksha which is granted by Perumal and not attained on our own efforts. So, please do not consider Adiyen as learned.

Sure Swamy. Please drop a sms to Adiyen’s number 9940134592. Let us surely meet one day. Adiyen is in Madipakkam.

Let us together try to take part in Shri Velukkudi Swamy Kainkaryams and also learn from each other under guidance of Upanyasams by Shri Velukkudi Swamy.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

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2 on August 21, 2017

Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,

Sri Dasarathiye Namaha,

Srimad Vara Vara Munaye Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,

 

Dear Bakthas,

 

Well Comprehended.

 

Sri Velukkudi Swami says the same thing in the past EnpaNi #600, Study Opinion and Debate” that HE himslef is a “Beginner”, so we need to consider ourselves as “Yet to Begin” and not ourselves as “Beginners”.

 

Swami Says “………………Solleendu Irukkira Adiyenum Padicchu Gyanathai Valarkanumnnu dhaan virumbugiraen. Adhaey polay, intha Groupla irukkaravargalaum appadi thaan iruppaargal endru nambukiraen. Yentha Group aarambichalaum, udanaey “Karutthu, udanaey Opinion, udanaey Debate, aal aalukku Yezhutharadhu. Adhu yellam Intha Groupla Vaichu kidara dhaaga yellam illai…………”

 

In Kinchikaram 2017 calender CD about Swami Ramanujar Vaibhavam, Swami says Perumal (BhagavAn SriKrishna) DOESN’t Give MoKsham in this Yuga, since HE has given that responsibility to Swami Ramanujar.

 

So saying “I’m Swami Ramanujar Sambhandhi” or “Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha” or “Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr THiruvAdi” gets us Moksham (SriVaikuntam) which is what BhagavAn likes.

 

Also, in this month Aug’2017 Kinchitkaram calender on the left bottom corner section says:

“Paesi Peruvadhu Alla Mukthi” –> How an oomai and deaf who don’t have access even to chant BhagavAn Naamam /Dvayam got Moksham in same birth with Swami Ramanujar KRUPA KATAKSHAM.

There is only Three methods to REACH Moksham (SriVaikuntam) as per BhagavAn.

Reaching SriVaikuntam requires:

“Bakthi Yoga Margam” (Good method, may reach Moksham after many Janmas once Prarabtha karmas get depleted, since WE BELIVE IN OUR EFFORTS AND NOT BHAGAVAN’s THIRUVADI KARUNAI) or

“Sharangathy Margam” (Better method, ‘MAY’ reach Moksham in same janma (birth) or after many janmas, depending up when we will have “MahaVishvasam” on Perumal Lotus Feet, like Draupathi had MahaVishvasham (Yedhu Nadanthaalum paesaamal irukkanam). If not, we have to re-do Sharanagathy. This Sharanagathy is called Athma Nivedhanam, very tough for us to do, sicne we know there is NO ONE Before and After Draupathi had done such Sharanagathy. So in this kali yuga, this method is also ruled out for us to reach Moksham in same birth.

“Ramanuja ThiruvAdi Margam” well known as “Ramanuja Dharishanam” (Best Method, WILL reach Moksham in same janma (birth) due to Swami Ramanujar “KRUPA KATAKSHAM”, since we are NOT RELYING on OUR EFFORTS, rather we are expressing our “AASAI” to reach reach SriVaikuntam which is the criteria for this Margam. Since, PErumal has promised to Swami Ramanujar that HE wil give Moksham to all his Sambhandhis. Swami’s says in 2017 Calender CD, there are 15 ways to get SWmai Ramanujar Sambhandham, one of teh method is doing Prapatti (surrender to Achryan by doing Panch Samskaram).

“Sri Vishnu Loka Mani Mandappa Maarga Dhaayee, Ramanujao Vijayadhaey ‘YathirajaRajaha’ by Swami Swami Koorath Azhvan in Dhati Panchakam. Swami explains the Dhati Panchakam in this year kinchit calender CD.

 

Without Sri Velukkudi Swami’s doscourses, we wouldn’t have known these things.

So we can also say “Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdi/Abhimaana Margam” which leads to SWami’s Acharyan THiruvAdi and the chain link leads to Swami Ramanujar THiruvAdi and thus leads to LOTUS FEET of BHagavAn SriKrishna.

 

So we can keep saying ” Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam” or “Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan” or “Sri Velukkudi Krishna Maharaj ki Jai” or “Srila Velukkudi Paadha Dasan” which will gives us Moksham (Sri Vaikuntam) in this same birth.

 

Hope this Helps,

 

Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,

Adiyen Acharya Dasan,

Adiyen Ramanuaja Dasan,

Padikkaamal Maadu Maeithu Kondu Irundha SriKrishna BhagavAn ki Jai.

 

on August 21, 2017

Danyosmi. Thank you for a detail explanation.

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan

on August 21, 2017

Thayee. Adiyenin oru siru vinnappam. Karuthu endru kooda vaithu kollalam. Thavariruppin Mannikkavum.

I too listened to Enpani audios. Swamy said, in Sathas, people used to debate based on Pramanas. But, many people do baseless debates, which may be flagged by Swamy.

As long as intention of debates is to learn something, it should not be a threat. Debates done to win are only problems.

Adishankarar debated with Buddhists and we have flourished Sanathana Dharma now in hands.

Ramanujar raised questions against Yadavaprakasar and other Advaitins. He had lot of challenges in establishing back Sri Vaishnavam. He saved Sri Vaishnava Sampardayam.

Madhvar also debated even against his guru and shown us Dvaita Sampardayam.

If we see our history, all sampardayams are established only after healthy debates.

They didn’t hesitate to raise a flag even against their Gurus, when the statements are not in agreement with Pramanas.

You may say they are Avathara Purushas and we are nothing. Agreed. We are yet to begin and they are Aparoksha Gnanis.

However, at our level, healthy debates to learn based on Pramanas should be ok. Swamy may or may not accept in this group. But, I am speaking in general.

There are some baseless debates like, “Why should I believe in Sabdha Pramana?”. These kind of debates to be certainly avoided. Convincing answers can be given only through Sabdha Pramana. If Sabdha Pramana itself is questioned?

One may debate, “Why should I believe in God?”.

I am not knowledgeable enough to completely understand intention behind Swamy speeches in Enpani audios.

But, I think the intention of Swamy’s speech would have been to stop baseless debates.

In other audios, Swamy says, “Baghavanai patri niraya discuss pannanum. Naan sonnadhu sadharana discussions patri”.

Sanadhana dharmatha spread panna niraya per munvaranum. Etc.

So, I believe Swami is fine with debates based on Pramanas that promote learning of scriptures. Otherwise, technology is advanced. So, members would have been given the choice of raising questions alone and may be blocked from discussions.

However, your point is well taken. Adiyen would not debate even based on Pramanas due to time constraints as told already. But, will come up with doubts if any in Sastras.

Your reply for ways to Moksham was awesome. Thank you very much for detail explanations.

Shri Velukkudi Swamigalin Porpadhangalukku Adiyenin Aneka Koti Namaskarams.

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7 on August 21, 2017

Adiyen,

Enakku onnu purila. Question is why different? How different? Devar explained how different.

The difference of brahma Jiva Jada bedham is indeed emphasized in veda. Kainkaryam may differ but it doesn’t differentiate jivas still (according to adiyen’s opinion with qualified logic). nithyAs different from mukhthAs.

Even Krishna Premi Anna once said “Nithyargal ellAm nammai keli (mock) aaga paarpaargal”. May be it’s a contextual statement.

As per mukkur and Velukkudi:
Anasooya Devi . That is no asooyai in moksham. No potti poraamai in moksham.

Tulasi Devi (chedi) kitta Perumal romba neram nirpaaraam. Appo matha mukthAthma adha rasipaalaam. Poraamai varaadhaam.

Mukkur:
Appo eppadi Sanath kumararkku Jayan Vijayan mela kovam vandhadhu? Adhu Narayanan leelaai. Agatithagatana sAmarthyam.

My acharyan’s soul and my soul will be there is moksham and I want to do kainkaryam to my achArya there. Whether Perumal is there or not I don’t care.

If it is possible to differentiate adiyen from my Acharyan adiyen will be happy. Learned from sampradhayic story that KoorathAzhwar wanted to do kainkarya to Ramanujar in moksham. (*Names may differ).

Still adiyen argue there will be no such difference between jivas as per scriptures. Identity us lost. No more self.

Adiyen even know that my PoorvAchAryar went till vrajA Nadhi and sent back by perumAL as Swami’s lifetime was not yet over.

It came in RangaNAtha pAduka or some book. Adiyen don’t remember exactly where it came but it came in a book.

Adiyen know that my thenbirai Andavan was able to transfer prArabdha Karma in to his holiness’s towel for sometime to facilitate Thiru Aaradhanam. The towel was shivering.

“PrArabdhamey poi setha neram anga iru”

Once kainkaryam is over his holiness took it back that’s the beauty. It’s was a shivering noi sAthindAr.

Whether we beleive it or not that’s the truth.

Upanishad says cut one rice. Moolar says cut hair, may be that’s their sampradhayam. Rice is mangalam Mahalakshmi as per SriVaishnavam.

Highlighted reply:
“AthmA is anu mAthra swaroopam. ParamAthma is sarvaVyApakathvam.” That’s the difference.

Srivaishnavam view:
An Athma in liberated state can create but does not do so. Velukkudi Swamy has told in upanyasam that creation is a hectic task so jivAthmA don’t want such duties. It’s more of a responsibility.

That’s why adiyen was arguing Mahalakshmi thAyAr can give moksha but does not do. Doing is different from can do. (Require pramAnam though adiyen not that learned. I reflect my Vadakalai elders. Adiyen cannot forego my sampradhAyam in the name of forward thinking)

If a simple jivAthmA can create certainly thAyAr can do more than that.

Veda says: Athma and Jada both are body to paramAthman.

“Yasya AthmA shareeram yasya Prithvi shareeram ”

Like soul to our body everything body to supersoul paramAthma that includes creation & uncreated.

Secondly, are we disconnected from paramAthman now? Not at all.

“VyApya NArayana Sthitha:”

My view based on such siddhAntha:
A little finger cannot claim to be entire body.

It is part and parcel of a human body. So is the Athman part and parcel of paramAthman.

The knowledge of Athman is infinite. Athman itself is knowledge. Just like a lamp flame which is made of fire but it cannot equal sun’s flame though both are fire.

One is kutti fire and another is periya fire. Both are fire though.

When within body Athma knowledge (vyApakathvam) is only till body due to Karma. When karmA is unbound AthmA knowledge becomes infinite.

When fully realized or liberated the AthmA knowledge is infinite awareness.

Experiencing Anandha is actually such a realization.

Realization is different from experiencing.

Advaitham:
Experiencing needs two entities. Realization is self.

If I get happiness from another it’s experiencing.

If I myself the happiness it’s realization.

“Get” is the keyword between two statement.

Yes adiyen like all three viewpoints of advaitA, Dwaitam and vishistAdvaitam but feel answer coming from vishistAdvaitam only. (With due respect to other two viewpoints)

Coming to why different. In sushupthi we mingle with him. Mix with him we get back when we are awake jAgruth. May be sushipthi is that oneness.

A Jiva always realizes “I” no matter what it’s conciousness level is. Velukkudi Swamy says “A person who lost his memory keeps asking who am I? Where am I?”

Meaning feeling “I” always exists.

Athma is bound by Karma. AthmA is anAdi and so is Karma as per Velukkudi Swamy. The conciousness differs based on Karma only.

Creation word itself is questionable. As it is self manifestation. Then why the question of where it’s starting?

Velukkudi Swamy used to say ” you can seperate red color from saree but you cannot seperate white colour from dhothi”

“Pruthak siddham” “Apruthak siddham”.

Vishnu sahasranAma upanyasam:
“EkO Vishnu: Mahat bhuthan pruthak bhuthAn yanekacha:”

If you see separate it’s seperate. If you see it as one it’s one. That’s the beauty of vishistAdvaitam.

Dasanudasan

on August 21, 2017

Swamy. Fine. Let us stop the debate. It’s not convincing to me. Thats all. It is also vice versa. If we deserve, we will understand everything.

Ok. Adiyen is not a qualified Visishtadvaiti. But, you are the one. Let us not stretch it based on each other’s reply. Let us focus on question if possible but not link with other threads of yours and carry on the debates indefinitely. The debates are not desired also in this forum.

Pramanas are already given. We can give Pramanas but acceptance is left to individual. We cannot expect that what ever we say should be accepted by others. We both go by each other’s bias at the end.

Sruti and Smriti never contradicts. But, if we feel that there is a contradiction, then Sruti takes precedence over Smriti.

Further the question asked is not about liberated souls. It is about Jiva with karma and Jada held by Lord Himself before creation. It represents non-liberated souls first of all. But, we both are discussing indefinitely on liberated souls. Let us see how Vaikuntam is, after first of all liberating.

If there is no difference between Jiva in karma and Jada held with Brahmam before creation, you may see Jiva and Jada as equal to Brahmam. It’s not going to affect Adiyen in any way. Adiyen is closing Adiyen’s question and no more reply is desired by Adiyen.

Danyosmi.

on August 21, 2017

Hare Krishna! Aneha Koti Namaskaram!

 

Manikkavum Swami. Adiyen would like to share few humble words (from discourses/books read). Request Swamis to forgive Adiyen if the response is inappropriate in anyway.

 

Fundamentals are the same however we slice and dice and try to bring in intricate differences. We may find our self comfortable, when others understand Vedanta (or any thing else for that matter)  “in the same” way as we understood. Which is why the sambradayam is given so importance as it “groups” people of similar thoughts (or people who accept or understand Vedanta in a given, prescribed way by purvacharyas).

 

For ex. Vishishtadvaita “already” reconciles both ‘advaita’ and ‘dvaita’ in a beautiful way which is why Adiyen finds it very compelling to accept it “as-is” and enjoy the company of Srivaishnava satsang (note, Gaudiya vaishnava’s ‘acintya beda-abeda’ philosophy also is only a different flavor of “Vishishtadvaita” that our Swami also uses to explain how ‘paramaatma’ is both same and different from ‘jiva’ “at the same time”.

 

So it may be difficult to accept a new line of interpretation (though it may well be a reflection of very same content) for people who have already accepted the philosophies as ‘given’/’delivered’ by purvacharyas. Also to Swami’s point of discussing a different topic against original topic is also a technique used by many purvacharyas especially when the topic in discussion can not be ‘directly’ addressed, so its not an attempt to divert but only a technique to make few questions clear in a ‘subtle’ way.

 

 

Heard from a devotee that in old days, debates are so critical (not just healthy debate as we call now) as the one who loses the debate has to ‘follow’ the one who wins 🙂 Please do not mistake or misinterpret this as a sign of discouraging any discussion but just sharing information.

 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 21, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swamy

It’s a public forum. I think it’s better to take the debate offline.

As you rightly said, fundamentals are same but they are different intrinsically. Ocean water and Uddharani water are same because both are water. But, ocean water has the capability to destroy a whole city while Uddharani water can’t even move a stone. If we say two things are equal, then in what aspects? They are not equal in all aspects as per Pramanas. So, a question of difference is always valid.

Only unity in diversity is Antaryami Brahmam.

Adiyen is also trying to say the same. In bliss and gnana, they are comparable but not in terms of capability and power.

Still Adiyen can give more Pramanas to with hold the debate but if it’s required, let us take it offline and not further in a public forum.

Thanks to everyone for detail explanations.

Danyosmi

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan Pranesh

on August 21, 2017

Adiyen,

*Uddharani water can’t even move a stone” Maharishi Agasthyar drank 7 oceans .with uddhrunni water ☺

Dasanudasan
????

on August 21, 2017

Sri:

Just small advice, request devotees to get clarifications from their respective Acharyan and resume the quest for knowledge.

Discussing (debating) is a part time job for us. Whereas for AchArya purushAs researching in spirituality is the main job. They are more advanced in those subjects.

If not convincing let’s leave it but let’s not stop trying from different sources.

The greats had a logical endpoints.

ACHARYA DEVO BHAVA
????

on August 22, 2017

Maharishi Agastyar got such power due to Brahmam or is powerful on self to drink everything without support of Brahmam?

Yes. It’s better to get clarified from Acharyan to avoid misguidance.

on August 22, 2017

We shall understand that we are able to even move a grass only because of Brahmam. Otherwise, Devas are also powerless. So, glories of a Jiva is also attributed to Brahmam only. Kenopanishad is Pramana. If Agastiyar is able to do, it’s because of Antaryami Brahmam. Not by Agastiyar’s own efforts.

A Jiva is directed by Brahmam even in the state of Moksha. Katopanishad is Pramana.

Comparing a Jiva with Brahmam is considered an act of Bagavad Nindhanai by Vadhiraja Theerthar in his work named Yukti Mallika.

However, in liberated state, I do agree that they are comparable in few aspects but not like to like.

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11 on August 22, 2017

Devarirukku Adiyenin Aneka Koti Namaskarams.

Reference: Sri Bashyam (Brahma Sutras) of Bagavad Ramanujar

இதர வ்யபதேஸாதிகரணம்
(Idharavyapadesadhikaranam)

This has three Sutras.

First Sutra is an argument by opponents against Vedanta based on Mahavakyas. Next two Sutras are answer given by Badarayanar.

This is written from Sri Bashyam only and not based on Sankara Bashyam or Madhva Bashyam.

Sutra 159: உலகின் காரணமாக ஜீவன் பரமனிலும் வேறுபடாது காட்டப்படுகிறது எனில் நல்லதைத் தவிர்ப்பது, அல்லதைச் செய்வது எனும் குற்றங்கள் ப்ரம்மத்திற்கு வந்து சேரும்.
(If Jiva is not differentiated from Brahmam and if Brahmam is the cause of this world then Brahmam will get the Dosha of doing undesirable things and avoiding good things).

This is the argument done by opponent of Vedanta to disprove that Brahmam is the cause of this world. Let us see how Badarayanar refutes this. This is again taken from Sri Bashyam only.

Sutra 160: ஜீவன் பிரம்மத்திலும் வேறுபட்டதே என்பதாலேயே சுட்டிக்காட்டப் படுகிறது.
(It is indicated that Jiva is different from Brahmam).

Sutra 161: கல் முதலியவைகளுடன் உயிர்ப்பண்டங்கள் பொருந்தாமை போல பிரம்மத்துடன் ஜீவன் பொருத்துதல் இல்லை.
(Similar to stones cannot be compared with living beings, Jiva is not similar to Brahmam).

Above does not mean that Jiva is equivalent to Jada. He is definitely a conscious being. But, a Jiva does not possess power by virtue of his nature. Jiva is also non-functional without presence of Brahmam. In this way, Brahmam is the cause of Jiva becoming functional. But, Jiva is comparable to Brahmam only in few aspects.

Shri Velukkudi Swami also said in one of his Upanyasams. “Jivas become equal to Brahmam in state of liberation just because it is granted by Brahmam.” They don’t become capable themselves.

So, Brahmam is superior to Jiva even in Moksha loka.

Again, Jiva is comparable to Brahmam in few aspects like bliss, Gnana etc. But, overall, Jiva doesn’t match with Brahmam and Brahmam is always superior.

If Brahma creates, it is not by power of Brahma. It is by support of Brahmam. Then how Brahma and Brahmam are completely equal?

If Seshan bears world, it is not because of power of Seshan. It is because, he is supported by Brahmam.

If Garudan fly, it is not because of power of Garudan. It is because, he is supported by Brahmam.

Hope Devarir know the story of Thiruvellarai Divya Desam. Once Garudan thought “I am gloriful because I bear the weight of Perumal.” Perumal just put one hand on Garuda’s shoulder and Garuda collapsed. Then Perumal said, “Don’t think that you have capability to bear my weight. I am making myself to the extent you can bear me. Otherwise, no one is equal to me.” Garudan realized his mistake. This sthala puranam speaks about Garuda Garva Bangam.

If Agastiyar shows his power on water, it is not because of the power of Agastyar. It is because he is supported by Brahmam.

Ippadi igathilum sari, parathilum sari, naam anaivarume Brahmathai munnitte vazhgirom enumbothu, naan Brahmathirku samamanavan endru sonnal, adhu Brahmathai kuraippaduthuvadhagadha?

Devarir nanmaikuthan solgiren. Oru velai naam Mokshathil Brahmathirku ellavidhathilum Samamaga aavom endral magizhchiye. Anal ingu ulla varai oru Vaishnavanukku perumai, thannai Daasanu Daasan, Kadayen endru sollikolvathil than irukkiradhu. Idhaiye Acharyargalum virumbuvaargal.

A story by Shri Ramakrishna Paramahamsar. “A cook cooked well and impressed a king. The king called him and said, you are cooking well and impressed me. Please sit with me in my ariyasanam. How wonderful is this to hear?

Now, let us say, the cook cooked well and said himself, I am cooking well so I deserve ariyasanam. How is this to hear?” This is example of Ramakrishna Paramahamsar.

The cook never becomes equal to king in all aspects in either examples. When cook sits near king, it is only because king allows. So, even in this Perunthanmai, cook is not equal to king.

Aga, neengal sonnamadhiri Acharyarai anugungal. Brahmam engo irukkirar. Naan keezhe irukkiren ennum sinthai moolame Moksham kidaikum. Unmaiyum adhuve.

Neengal Vadakalai Iyengar Naan Madhvan enbathaiellam thandi, Sriman Narayananukku edhu perumai endru sinthippom.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 22, 2017

Sribashyam above referred from book authored by Shri Srirangam Sadagopa Muthu Srinivasan. Shenbaga Publishers. Book cost only Rs. 300. You may buy and read for more clarity.

on August 22, 2017

Hare Krishna! Aneha Koti Namaskaram Swami!

 

The essence of ‘Vishishtadvaita’ is, the lord is neither different nor same with Jiva/Achit. Same philosophy in different flavor, the lord is both same and different from Jiva ‘at the same time’. It is inconceivable hence the philosophy is called ‘acintya’.

 

Like the example given above in one of the responses, a nail in one of the fingers is not ‘Adiyen’. Neither it is different from Adiyen because it is ‘part’ of Adiyen, though it is such a ‘trivial’ part. Just because it is ‘trivial’, it does not make it different from Adiyen. It also constitutes Adiyen’s body. Speaking of nail, it was used as weapon by Sri Narasimha perumal to kill Hiranyakasibu, thereby it is not ‘that’ trivial as well 🙂

 

While we can pick so many references from Sri Bashyam to support how Jiva is different from the lord, there can be numerous references from same scripture (and many other scriptures including Bhagavad Gita and Bhagavatam) to support how the lord is same as well. But that does not change the basic understanding of ‘Vishishtadvaitam’ as pronounced by Sripada Ramanujacharya.

 

Also the discussion depends on, from ‘which’ perspective it is debated. For a fallen soul like Adiyen, yes, the ‘difference’ should be more appreciated so as to ‘cleanse’ the mind and purify. At the same time, if Adiyen thinks the lord from a devotee mood, out of love, Adiyen do not and will not differentiate from the lord and it is a pleasure to think that even fallen soul like Adiyen is ‘part’ of the lord.

 

On the same line, does perumal care whether ‘Adiseshan’ is different from him Or does ‘Adiseshan’ care he is different from perumal ? So on the same line, liberated souls may not even care about the difference (while we all understand there is difference). The highest stage of devotion is ‘Aatma nivedanam’ where the difference is neither appreciated by perumal nor by liberated soul and that is the highest goal of fallen souls like Adiyen.

 

Request devotees to correct if there is any misunderstanding. As indicated earlier, Adiyen follows ‘Vishishtadvaitam’ and the corrections can only be accepted in that line of philosophy.

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 22, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swamy

Ok. Provide Pramanas from Sribashyam and Bagavad Gita to show that there is no difference between Jiva and Brahmam.

Few things should be directly understood and few things have to be taken in secondary sense to understand Vedanta completely.

Certainly Adiyen will not continue debate as it is of no use. But, Adiyen have Sri Bashyam, Ramanuja Bashyam for Gita and few critical Visishtadvaitam books at home. Let Adiyen understand what Bagavad Ramanujar says based on your Pramanas and keep the understanding with Adiyen myself.

Adiyen is not biased and confined to one Siddhanta though I am a Madhva. That applies to Adiyen’s own Dvaita also. Adiyen always try to see Vedanta as Vedanta because the difference in three Siddhantas arises only due to lack of understanding of Vedanta by people and the real differences are not in Siddhantas because all the three speaks on same Vedanta. So, Adiyen is interested in all three Acharyas.

Further, please note that Veda Vyasar, who propounded Vedanta approved the works of all three Acharyas. This is not possible if those three are contradicting.

Hence, please don’t hesitate to provide Pramanas and let Adiyen learn.

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan Pranesh

on August 22, 2017

Hare Krishna! Aneha Koti Namaskaram Swami!

 

Debates are good Swami, provided both of us are seasoned enough to carry over the debate keeping aside the emotions. As we know, there were few bitter experiences in this very own satsang when the discussions were misunderstood.

 

By the way, Is Swami asking for Pramanas for ‘Vishishtadvaitam’ itself Or for Adiyen’s understanding of ‘Vishishtadvaitam’ ? 🙂 🙂 🙂 Just kidding Swami, please excuse Adiyen’s sense of humor.

 

In Adiyen’s very humble opinion, Absolute truth is one, God is one. It is Lord Sri Krishna for Adiyen and it is Lord Sriman Narayana for someone and so on and so forth. In Adiyen’s capacity, there is no way that this understanding can be reconciled but Adiyen is cautious enough in not imposing this constraint/limitation on any other devotee. 

 

Adiyen feels, that it would take ‘much more’ than what one devotee can imagine that ‘it would take’ to reconcile different ways of understanding/experiencing the lord. If Swami feels, Swami is up for such reconciliation, then its a choice and Adiyen respects that choice. 

 

Adiyen has already shared the Bhagavad Gita verses in the response and one more key verse from Bhagavad Gita below. Will share some more from Srimad Bhagavatam (could not recollect the sloka numbers).

 

Bg 18.20 உயிர்வாழிகள் எண்ணற்ற உருவமாக பிரிக்கப்பட்டிருந்தாலும், அவர்களை பிரிக்கப்படாத ஆன்மீக இயற்கையாக, எந்த அறிவின் மூலம் ஒருவன் காண்கின்றானோ, அந்த அறிவு ஸத்வ குணத்தில் இருக்கும் அறிவாகும்.

 

Bg 18.20 That knowledge by which one undivided spiritual nature is seen in all living entities, though they are divided into innumerable forms, you should understand to be in the mode of goodness.

 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 22, 2017

Hare Krishna! One more:

 

Bg 10.22 — Of the Vedas I am the Sāma Veda; of the demigods I am Indra, the king of heaven; of the senses I am the mind; and in living beings I am the living force [consciousness].

 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

 

on August 22, 2017

Swami. Aneka Koti Namaskarams.

Yes. I do agree that debates that are emotional are not healthy.

Thanks for Pramanas from Bagavad Gita. I will surely consider them for research on Brahmam and Jiva as Adiyen have Gita Bashyas from all three Acharyas.

As promised earlier, Adiyen would not continue the debate in this forum and keep the findings with self.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 22, 2017

Swami

Perhaps Adiyen didn’t convey reconciliation Adiyen meant in understandable manner. There are certainly little differences in Philosophies and vast differences in Sampardayams. But, people sometimes appreciate enemity in Philosophies too. Adiyen’s intention is not to unite three and Adiyen does not have capability to do that.

Adiyen’s intention is only to prove that all Philosophies are right as per Vedanta. To see Vedanta as Vedanta. Sampardayams can never be united and it’s not necessary also. At the top of all, Adiyen is not qualified to do that. For that matter, Adiyen is already struggling for Moksha of self and can’t even think of that.

If I use the word Shankara, Madhvas start boiling like anything. If I use the word Madhvar, Advaitins start reacting. Probably Visishtadvaitins bridge between the two and hence not reacting much. But, as I already said I am a Madhva by birth, even our Vikram Swami stated twice that, “May be you are speaking from Dvaita point of view”. I never used a single quote from Madhvacharya granthas in any thread. These are impressions on Adiyen but Adiyen try to take all three in fact.

One of Adiyen’s Sri Vaishnavite friend in office says, “Only people who come by way of Udayavar will reach Moksha. Others can’t reach.” I respect Bagavad Ramanujar. I know that Bagavan promised that whoever is recommended by Udayavar will get Moksha. But, did Lord really say that people of other Sampardayam will not certainly get it?

To face forthcoming threats to Sanathana Dharma, it is essential that we all should be united. This feel of enemity should be lost. All three Acharyas and their Philosophies should be equally respected. However, Sampardayam of self is always one step higher but criticizing other Sampardayams may not be right.

The only way to build respect to Acharyas of all Sampardayams is to understand that all are sub-philosophies of Vedanta and Vedanta Sutras of Badarayanar is mother of these three and all three are correct in their angles. The feel of one’s Sampardayam as superior to another causes this enemity. If we think that we are all from same source Vedanta, there is a probability that we may be united at least as far as Vedanta is considered. Sampardayam and Lord we choose as Brahmam are all together different and cannot be changed.

Biases of people are so strong that we don’t accept other Acharyas are equally correct. Instead, people get a feel that someone is trying to disprove the Sampardayam followed and often go by biases and unnecessary reactions. We are not owner of Vedanta. What if we consider all three for Analysis, following Philosophy of self always?

When I say Adishankarar states Jiva Brahma bedham in Brahma Sutras, Advaitins don’t accept. They blindly go by the bias that only Brahmam is real and rest all are illusion. But, why do they don’t accept statements of their own Acharya in other angle?

Ok. The same statements were also conveyed to a Madhva and asked, “Shankara is also conveying Dvaita Bhava in his Brahma Sutras. Why do you still refuse to accept it?” He replies, “Shankara does not speak bedha. Dvaita given by Madhvacharya alone is authenticated Dvaita and he started cursing Shankara”.

Is the society healthy? We are all stamped as Advaitins, Visishtadvaitins and Dvaitins and trying to prove that one of these is superior to another based on the responsibility we ourselves assume while not asked by Lord or Acharyas. We all consider that the Philosophy followed by self is supreme to other while others are illogical. But, how far we understood our own Philosophy in the view of Acharya who propounded it is a question. We all keep debating based on our understandings, what we heard or learnt from childhood.

There is a famous proverb. “To fill a cup, first empty the cup”, means we have to come out of biases with open approach.

So, Adiyen’s dream is to give a book that shows all three Philosophies are equally right and it’s certainly not about uniting Sampardayams. To project Vedanta as Vedanta.

As stated already, Adiyen is disqualified to do it as of today. But, if God wishes to fulfill Adiyen’s desire in this, He will guide. It’s left to Him.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 22, 2017

Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram Swami!

 

Mannikkavum Swami, Adiyen was also not clear in articulation earlier so the response might have not conveyed the intended message. Adiyen is software architect by profession so there is inherent inclination towards ‘abstraction’. In the sense, as far Adiyen’s understanding goes, Vishishtadvaitam ‘itself’ connects ‘Advaitam’ and ‘Dvaitam’ and the connection is what Adiyen refers as ‘reconciliation’ in the earlier responses so ‘Vishishtadvaitam’ is an abstraction of ‘Advaitam’ and ‘Dvaitam’ [unless someone corrects this understanding]. Now to create one more abstraction on top of these 3 is something that Adiyen is not able to visualize but if Swami feels there is a possibility, then there is nothing wrong in attempting.

 

If a pursuit is honest, the lord will definitely help the pursuit. And Swami’s concern over acceptance of different acharyas by respective group of followers is completely understandable. In fact, our Swami in Sanadana dharma discourse, clearly brings out this concern. However, Gaudiya vaishna line of teachers specifically warn that the philosophy will make the heart ‘hard’ and sometimes it becomes a hindrance for Bakti. In Adiyen’s experience this is a valid warning that we should be aware of. And Adiyen passes this message with a ‘genuine’ concern for Swami, that we should not deviate from ‘Bakti’ maargam in the process of pursuing something on philosophical lines.

 

Having said and discussed all, Adiyen would be more than happy to pass on the references (not just on Vishishtadvaita but on any topic that Swami is interested in, as that is how Adiyen uses it to refresh and revise the slokas) from Bhagavad Gita and Srimad Bhagavatam. 

 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarapanamastu!

on August 22, 2017

Hare Krishna! Aneha Koti Namaskaram!

 

Srimad Bhagavatam Canto 4 Chapter 7: The Sacrifice Performed by Dakṣa

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.7.19 — Lord Nārāyaṇa was seated on the shoulder of Stotra, or Garuḍa, who had big wings. As soon as the Lord appeared, all directions were illuminated, diminishing the luster of Brahmā and the others present.

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.7.53 — A person with average intelligence does not think the head and other parts of the body to be separate. Similarly, My devotee does not differentiate Viṣṇu, the all-pervading Personality of Godhead, from any thing or any living entity.

 Srimad Bhagavatam 4.7.54 — The Lord (Hari) continued: One who does not consider Brahmā, Viṣṇu, Śiva or the living entities in general to be separate from the Supreme, and who knows Brahman, actually realizes peace; others do not. 

 

Srimad Bhagavatam canto 7 chapter 7: What Prahlāda Learned in the Womb

Srimad Bhagavatam 7.7.49 — The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Hari, is the soul and the Supersoul of all living entities. Every living entity is a manifestation of His energy in terms of the living soul and the material body. Therefore the Lord is the most dear, and He is the supreme controller.

 

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 22, 2017

Sure Swamy. Aneka Koti Namaskarams.

I will certainly come to you for doubts on Gita or Bagavatam.

Regarding margas, I don’t see Bakthi and Gnana as two different margas at all. Gnana leads to Bakthi only. Bakthi ultimately results in surrender.
Gnana and Bakthi both go hand in hand. In fact, at matured stage of knowledge, arises real Bakthi.

Kamya Bakthi converts into Nishkamya Bakthi through Gnana.

Knowledge is Arivu. Anubhavam is Bakthi. Arivu+Anubhavam = Gnanam or Wisdom.

So, there is no use of Arivu without Bakthi. Only when both gets saturated, purpose of life is fulfilled.

Understanding Supremacy of Brahmam is knowledge. Feeling the same through all forms of God including Archa Vigraham is Bakthi. Wisdom is combined effect.

All three Acharyas supports Bakthi. There is no doubt that Ramanujar and Madhvar suggests Bakthi Marga.

Shankarar also supports this by his granthas like Bhaja Govindam.

“Bhaja Govindam Bhaja Govindam Govindam Bhaja Moodamathe. Sanprapte Sannihite kaale nahi nahi rakshati dukurankarane”.

He says, “Oh fools. Pray Govinda. At the time of death only He can save us and not these grammar or vyakarana patas”.

Further he says, “If one does not do archana to Govinda at least once in life, it is impossible for him to attain Moksha”.

In Aparoksha Anubhuti, Shankarar says, “Sadhana Chatushtayam (Viveka, Viraga, Sadga Sambathi which includes samam, tamam, uparadhi, tidisha, Shraddhai, samadhanam and 4th is Mumukshutvam) are achievable only by being devoted to Lord Murari (Krishna) and by pleasing Him.

So, Bakthi to Lord Hari has a very strong base in all three Philosophies. That’s why Adiyen said, how far one understands his own Philosophy of choice is a question.

Adiyen’s future attempt can be considered as removal of mis-interpretations by people from three Philosophies as Philosophies propounded by Purvacharyas are already clear. This should be from a neutral unbiased eye on all the three.

However, there is no doubt that Adiyen will never deviate from Bakthi Marga.

Thank you for encouragement and advice.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

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3 on August 23, 2017

@Srinivasan Pranesh Swamy

“Devarir nanmaikuthan solgiren. Oru velai naam Mokshathil Brahmathirku ellavidhathilum Samamaga aavom endral magizhchiye. Anal ingu ulla varai oru Vaishnavanukku perumai, thannai Daasanu Daasan, Kadayen endru sollikolvathil than irukkiradhu. Idhaiye Acharyargalum virumbuvaarga”

Adiyenukku bhagavath Preethyartham Kainkaryathula ishtam illanu devareer eppadi mudivukku varalaam?

Ippa edhukku “NaichyAnusandhAnathirukku” class edutheer? Naanum perumalum mokshathula onnu nu sonnena?

Where did adiyen refer brahma, Jiva and Jada are equal? Please show me

Sushupthi state la mix aagalanu sollungo? “Shushupthi” term Naana kandu pidichen?

Adhukku badhil varalai

Naa pudicha muyalukku moonu kaal nu pesindrukkeer

Neenga thappa purinjunda adhukku adiyen enna pandrathu?

When adiyen say “Dasanudasan” adiyen mean it summa oppukku sollalai

En Vishnu dasanin dasan

Devareer vaango thiruvadi sevai pandren, paadha Poojai pandren

Adiyen have given enough pramAnAs that brahmam was “Sath CHITH and Anandam” and he is and will be from chAndogya Upanishad Sath vidhya prakaranam with Krishna Premi Swami anugraham then how will adiyen know all these?

“aaseeth” before creation

Adhukku direct badhil varalai

Answer padikkalana adiyen enna pandrathu?

Adiyen also said Jiva is “Anu swaroopam” and paramAthma is “Sarva vyApi”. It’s not own statements it’s all from pramAnAs and from elders after lenghty repeated questioning with politeness

Spoon feed Panna mudiyAdhu swami. Neer effort pottu kathundu engalukkum share pannanum nu prArthikkiren

We are not ready recknoers here neither our sampradhayam is designed that way

Gita
“Tad vitthi pranipAthEna pari prashnEna sevayA”
Paduka Muni vAkyA
“VidhyA vinayathEy adhbhutham”

Please read above quote meanings and come back

Adiyen is always vishistAdvaiti and don’t accept Dwaitam and advaitham, as answer is very precise by our Acharyas and convincing to adiyen

Leela vibhuthi la eppudi paakanum
Nithya vibhuthi la eppudi paakanum

nu cleara sollirukka

Adiyen also said ” we are not disconnected from Perumal now” it’s self manifestation. Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy used to repeatedly say this

Only difference ii a we didin’t realise

Realization is Athma Nyaanam for advaiti
But one step above for vishistAdvaiti
“ParamAthma sAkshAthkAaram”

Realising AntharyAmi who is slSwatha Siddham

Also it’s my guru’s lineage am proud of it

Requesting to listen
“Para Matha Bhangam of Swami Desikan”
“tAthparya chandrika of SwAmi Desikan”

Adiyen not qualified to say it with so little knowledge

Am a humble vishistAdvaiti who like to let others speak but not when someone starts judging with prejudice that adiye speaking out of pramAnAs

PramAnAs have interpretations that created 3 schools of thought

Interest irundhaa kelvi kelungo adiyen will reach to Asmad Acharyan and get back

Adiyen is sure they know better and more than us and will easily explain to our confused minds

Adiyen is Rangaramanuja Mahadesikar thiruvadi
Uttu kudukka maaten sethalum paravAillai

Same veda says in mahavAkyas
“Aham brahmAsmi”

*Shankarar gave his interpretation
*Madhwar also explained his interpretation.
*Illa udayavar explain pannalaya for same mahAvAkyam?

Devarku pinna yen kelvi porandhadhu? Evlo attempt panneer kandupidikka that’s my question?

Open forumla aduthvAlukku theriyAdhu nu soldrathu la sandhoshamA irundhaa please go ahead adiyen won’t stop it

Unmailaiye enakku theriyAdhu but adhunAla onnum koranju poidalai kathuppen kathrikka try pandren

Am not concluding anything here like others

Mahalakshmi thAyarkku moksham kudukka power irukka ? Kelvi . Vadakalai says says. Obviously my elders would have got answers and not simply said it. Adhu avaa interpretation. To find out answers is our responsibility.

Chumma verum debate will not do any good

Ipdi oru vishayam irukku nu therinjukalam avlo dhan

Naalu book vechu naamaley padichu paatha theriyAdhu answer varAdhu

My Vadakalai friend used to say Advaitam seems to be more correct but he is a vishistAdvaiti

Adhu Avar view adiyen thappu sollalai may be avarukku Seri nu patrukalam

When asked he will say set theory from mathematics to prove advaitham

Avar yen set theory Sonnar? Shankarar kudutha adhey example kudu. Solla mudiyAdhu. He decided to tell in my way. So it’s his choice for my acceptance

Velukkudi also said “red color can be removed from saree white colour cannot be removed from dhothi” to explain Apruthak Siddham

Can we ask why Swami is giving own example? That’s because we can understand only this level so he chose that style

Aprom hemy friend showed advaiti’s view of “kArya vaikuntam” which adiyen could not comprehend or accept

There cannot be two srivaikuntams as per adiyen

It’s advaiti stance that kArya vaikuntam is something lower to actual Sri vaikuntam

Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy told SriVaikuntam has another name ” ayOddhya”. Yoddhum na Shakya adyodhya. Yuddham panni jayikka mudiyAdhu.

So andha lokam is altogether different

If vaikuntam is “nacha punar aavarthathey” then how come Jayan Vijayan born on earth?

No declarations with prejudices or presumptions please, let’s make it open ended questions and have open mindee discussions to listen to all three philosophies

All my responses are in alignment with pramAnAs it’s not as if devar has quoted pramAnas and adiyen told from my dreams

You did not bother to read it properly or may have avoided adiyen as ignorant in these talks in your mind from beginning of discussion that’s what I can observe

Convince aagardhum aagadhadhum namma mind seasoning poruthadhu

Let’s not debate on debate itself let’s find out answers but in polite way with reference to context

No individual judgements

If response is okay take it else leave it

If you feel am blabbering that’s fine its how am engineered by Brahman

My AntharyAmi and your AntharyAmi is not able to convince each other may be.

Devareer yar thiruvadi?
With whom did devar undergo kAlakshEpam?
Adiyen not certified for dharga vAdam

So this may be my lack of knowledge to even enter such a debate with so much learned ghanapAdi person like devar

Dasanudasan

on August 23, 2017

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

If adiyen’s response hurts any sentiment then please consider it as

“brahma satyam jagan mithya”

As per advaitham all my responses are false so don’t take it to ?

?????

Dasanudasan

on August 23, 2017

Namaskarams Swamy,

Advaitam muzhusa padikkama adha thappunnu eppadi solrir. Shankara Grantham ellam padichirukkeera? Idhai than thannudayathu osthi mathavai pizhai endru makkal karudhuvadhaga sonnen.

Mithyaikum mayaikum periya verupadu irukku.

I read all your posts. It is not that Adiyen cannot answer. Inga Vendam. Neenga onnu sonna adha vachi 100 ah valathu vidra type. Idhu mudive illama poindirukkum.

Ungalukku ishtam Irundhal unga WhatsApp number kudungo. Adiyen sila kelvigal ketkiren. Ungalala mudincha Pramana reethiya bathil sollungo. Appo naan pudicha muyalukku moonu kaal yaar ninaipathunu theriyum.

Velukkudi Swami ivana yen groupla anumathichomnu ninaichidakoodathu. Neenga sonna Ella pramanathukkum bathil irukku. Open mind irundha offlinela discuss panna vango. Adiyen Garvathil sollalai. Anna neenga thayara iruntha intha vishayathirku oru mudivu kattuvom.

Inga Niruthipom.

on August 23, 2017

Aham Brahmasmi pondra mahavakyangalai eppadi purindhukolvathungarathukku than Brahma Sutra pramanam koduthen. Moonru acharyargalum kitta thatta ore madhiridhan pesara.

Acharya nindhanaila dhayavu seithu iranga vendam. Moondru acharyargalum mariyathaikku uriyavargale.

Veda Vyasar Adishankararukku Pratyakshamagi, 3 days avarodha avar kodutha Brahma Sutrathai vaadhittu, adhil tripthi adainthu, Shankararudaiya ayulai neetithu varamalithar.

Adhanala avlo easyah endhu correctu mathathu sariyillanu solla vendam. Adhu Acharya nindhanaila. Namma acharyarukku panna mattum illai.

Bagavad Ramanujaro Madhvaro kooda, avargal kalathil Vedantathai makkal purinthu kondathai kandithargale thavira, Shankararai vimarsanam seiyavillai.

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1 on August 23, 2017

Sri:
Who did Acharya nindanai? It’s funny devar interpret even simple statements differently that’s why you are still in doubts I guess

Mukkur Lakshmi Nrusimhachariyar solluvar
* jyothisham
* vyAkaranam
vida
* DhargamEy sirandhadhu

Logic is more convincing nu artham than just rule book

Adiyenukkum devar madhri thirichi pesa theriyum but bored of such talks. Adiyen neither advocate of Shankarar , Madhwar or Ramanujar

Adiyen no need to share any personal details in open forum neither obligated it’s pure individual prerogative.

Just like Velukkudi Swamy told in EnPaNi “I don’t need to tell when I celebrate Sri Jayanthi, it’s my prerogative and in accordance with my lineage”.

If shared Age it’s due to devar’s request and not due to adiyen’s preference

Adiyen didin’t even ask “what made you ask my age?” because am not bothered about it , you may have thought am childish let it be it’s your opinion

You are entitled to your opinion but it shouldn’t affect other’s credibility

Age has nothing to do with experience or knowledge
Sighting: Sri ParAshara Bhattar

Aadi Shankarar thappu nu naa yepoo sonnen?

Advaitam is a paradox. If Mithya is considered as a lie then whatever Shankarar said will become lie nu solla vandhen.

Velukkudi solluvar:
“Brahmathirkkey brahmaiyA?”

Bangalorela office pora vazhi la nadandhundey kadhula earpiece vechundhu upanyasam kaeten marakka mudiyAdhu

Btahmathirkku brahmai pidikka mudiyAdhu so Advaitham is impractical

“The one who talks about advaitham has not revealed such a state”

Please challenge this if possible

Mayai Ku devar pudhu definition kudukka Porel pola irukku

vishistAdvaitam la answer irukku
MAyai = Momentary truth

Andha nerathil unmai niraindhu kaana padugiradhu
* imagine snake as a rope
* Imagine pillar as a human

That imagination has truth because, the quality of snake and pillar is unique

*The snake has rope based qualities
*The pillar has human based qualities

Appo Swami Desikan ezhudhina Shatha Dhushani waste nu solla vareera?

100 la 64 dhan irukku nu nenaikaren
Adha padichuttu kandanathirkku badhil solla varum pesalam

Adiyen think someone who is learned than me can take over because victory with adiyen mean you loose

Am already a fool I accept

Adiyen pudusa soldrathirkku illai

Edhukku hide pannanum?
Paakrava Srivaishnavargal maraikkara nu nenaikka pdaathu

Nobody should think a SriVaishnava religion is hidden when everybody is openly challenging

Adiyen wish to discuss only the context and not anyone’s medhAvilAsam or individual criticism

You may be great let your Acharyan certify it and get title like Velukkudi Swamy I am the most happiest person in the world when our community grows not with such high negativities though

Velukkudi Krishnan Swami forum arambicha purpose is for Q & A and not for blogging

So kandippa ennaiyumEy thappa dhan ninaippaar. Yedhukku Ivan periyava pecha meerindrukkaan nu?

You declared something & started debate it wasn’t a question in first place

Dhargam pannanumna Vidwas Sadas pongo learned Sanskrit scholars are there

Adiyen just know Akshara abyAsam

Na thothuttenu public forumla othukaren

I lost you win Swami
Are you happy?

Summa Acharya nindanai nu route thiruppi vidaatheengo it’s not good for a learned BhAgavatha like devareer

Dasanudasan
????

on August 23, 2017

Swamy

Tensionla dhayavu seidhu varthaigalai kottadhel. Konjam porumaya kelungo. Victory is not Adiyen’s Moto. So, please don’t take it as competition. Unmaya sollanumna, Adiyenukku pesave bhayama irukku.

Mayanu Shankarar solvadhu Sriman Narayananin Maya Sakthi. Its a power that He possess. This is not illusion as everyone understands. Poi endru artham illai. Appadi Advaithigal sonnalum adhu thavaru. Sristi is running through His power of Maya. Adhai “illadhadhunu” porul purinchinda adhu Shankarar thavara?

Secondly, Mithyai is not equated to Maya. Mithyaina Anithyam. Indru irukku naalai maarum. Kanamal pogathu. Neengal ninaipathu pola “false” “poi” endru artham illai. Brahmam marudhalukku utpadadhadal Satyam endru solgirar. Prakriti marudhalukku utpattadhu dhane?

Sari. Prakritiye oru kattathil illamal poi viduma endral illai. Indha Sristi Moolaprakritiyaga irukkum.

If pot breaks, pot is subject to change. But, mud is always there.

Gita Bashyathil, Shankarar, Avyakthathil irunthu andam thondriyathu. Parabrahmam ana Sriman Narayanan than Maya sakthiyin moolam andathai katti aalgirar endru solgirar.

Mayai Mithyai ellathukkum illadhadhu, poi endru artham purinjinda adhu unga thappu. Sankarar thappu illa. Idhai vaithu naan Maya mithyavukku pudhu illatha artham soldrennu ninaichal ninachikongo. Aduvum Adiyen kutram illai.

Adukuthan sonnen, Ramanujarum Madhvarum avargal kalathu Vedantathai vaadittargale thavira Shankararai ondrum sollavillai. Advaitam sariyathan irukku. Naam purinjindathulla bedham irukku.

Mudhalil Advaitatirku Shankarar vaitha Peyar Advaitame Kidaiyadhu. Avar vaitha Peyar Brahma Vivarta Vadam. Dvaitatirku Madhvar vacha Peyar Dvaitame kidayathu. Tattva Vadham.

Ippadi nammale namakku vendiya peyargalai vachindu, nammoda purithal ellathaiyum acharyagal thalaila pottundirukkom. Ungalaiyum ennaiyum sollalai. Kaalam kaalama appadithan irukku.

Yosichiparungo. Shankararo Madhvaro Ramanujaro oruvarukku oruvar vadhidallai. Avargal Avathara purushargal. Thavaru izhaikka mattargal. Ramanujar vadthittadhu Yadhava Prakasar edhai Advaitamnu sonnaro adhai. Shankara Advaithathaiya? Madhvar vadhittadhu avar kaalathu Advaitathai. Shankararoda illai.

Naam thavara purinjindathai ellam oru Acharyar perla sonnal, adhu Acharyarai Ava mariyathai seivathudhane. Adhaiye sonnen. Thirikkavillai.

Ungalai kadinthu kollavillai. Jayikka vendum endrum ninaikkavillai. Ungalukku Tripthi illai endral thaniyaga pesi mudippom endruthan sonnen. Inge vendamnuthan sonnen. Jayikkanumno pandithythai kamikkanumno ninaithal ingeye pesiyirukkalam. En thaniya pesalamnu sollanum? Anga jeyichalum yaarukku theriya pogudhu? Adhanala Adiyen ennathai mudhalla dhyavu seidhu purinjikkongo.

Neengal kettergale. Jivan susupthi nilayil iraivanidam odungugiran. Devarir, “mix” endra varthaiyai payan paduthineergal. Jivanum Brahmamum mix agadhu. Odunguvathu veru ondravathu veru. Union is different from becoming one. If they mix, then there is no second entity called Jiva. Idhu first modern scholars purinjinda Advaitam. Sari.

Iraivan Gnana Swaroopan. Anal Jivano susupthiyil ariyamaiyil irukkiran. Avan iraivanidathil odungugiran. But, not mixing. Jivanukku Gnanam illai endru solla mudiyathu. Enendral susupthiyil naan ariyamaiyil irundhen ennum Gnanam Jivanukku undu.

But, though a Jiva has knowledge of non-knowledge in susubdhi it is not complete knowledge because we don’t know what happened in deep sleep. Oru velai iraivanai anubhavithom endru sonnal, antha Anubhavam minja vendum. But, we don’t feel anything in deep sleep. But, Brahmam is completely conscious every second.

Iraivan Gnana Swaroopan. Always conscious. If suppose we were mixed with Brahmam in deep sleep, then we should also have been conscious but we don’t gain any experience in deep sleep except the experience that I experienced nothing.

So, Jiva resides in Brahmam during deep sleep state but does not mix with Brahmam.

Oru veetil kudi irukkirom. Adhil thangugirom. Naan veetil vazhnthen endru solvoma naan vettoda mix ayitten nu solvoma?

Innum pesa niraya irukku Swamy. Neenga nijama therinjikkanumna kovathai vidungal. Porumaiya yosiyungal. Adhukkuthan number ketten. Ungala Jeyichi en pandithyatha nirubikka illa.

Tharamattennu sollittel. Paravayillai. Adiyenukku kavalai illai.

Acharyarai thittinathan ninthanainu illa. Shankarar advaitama naan purinjindathai kottinalum adhu ninthanaiye. Kobikkamal emotion agamal yosingo.

Interest irundha moonum padingo. Interest illana Srivaishnavathai mattum padingo ana mathadhai korachi edai podatheengo.

Unga kovathukku karanamana adiyenai manningo. Victory is not important for Adiyen. Neenga jeyichadhave irukkattum. Anal ukkarndhu porumaiya yosingo.

Mudinthal Shri Velukkudi Swamyya parthu kettu therinjikkongo.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

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0 on August 23, 2017

ஸ்ரீ ரங்கநாத பாதுகா ஸஹஸ்ரநாமம் வைபவம்.

இந்த பாதுகா ஸஹஸ்ரநாமம் என்பது என்ன ? ஒரு ஸ்லோகத்தை மட்டும் கீழே பதிவு செய்கிறேன்

” பாதபா பாதபா பாதபா பாதபா
பாதபா பாதபா பாதபா பாதபா
பாதபா பாதபா பாதபா பாதபா
பாதபா பாதபா பாதபா பாதபா ”

என்ன இது ? ஒரே வார்த்தையை 16 முறை எழுதியிருக்கிறேன் என்று நீங்கள் யோசிக்கலாம் …

இது பாதுகா சஹஸ்ரம் என்கிற படைப்பில் இடம் பெறும் வரிகள் . இது அ ஆ என்கிற உயிர் எழுத்துக்களை கொண்டது , இரண்டு மெய் எழுத்துக்களையும் கொண்டது .

எதற்காக இது இயற்றப் பட்டது ? இதை வேதாந்த தேசிகன் இயற்றினார் , 1000 வரிகள் , பெருமாளின் பாதுகைகளை பற்றி எழுத முடியுமா என்கிற சவாலை ஏற்று ஒரே இரவில் எழுதிய படைப்பில் தான் இந்த வரிகள் இடம் பெறுகிறது .

பாதபா , பாபா , அத , அபா , பாதபா , பாத , பா , பாத , பாபாத் , அபாபாத் , ஆ , பாபா , த , பாபா , ஆத , பா , பாத , பா

என்று பிரித்து படிக்கப் பட வேண்டும் , அதன் பொருள் என்னவெனில் , மரம் போன்ற தாவரங்களையும் , பிராணிகளையும் , அடைந்திருக்கும் பாபத்தை உணடழிக்கக் கூடிய அபிஷேக நீரை சொந்தமாக்கிக் கொண்டுள்ளதும் , முறையே நியமிக்கப் பட்டு , பதவிகளில் இருக்கும் தேவர்களை காக்கின்ற ஸ்ரீமன் நாராயணனின் திருவடிகளை காத்திடுவதுமான பாதுகை , பெற்றோர்களை நன்கு பார்த்துக் கொள்வோர் விஷயத்திலும் , நன்கு காப்பாற்றாதவர்கள் விஷயத்திலும் முறையே பாப புண்ணியத்தை நோக்குவதும் , ஸ்ரீ விஷ்ணுவை அனுபவிக்கின்றவற்கு சரணாகதிக்கு வழி வகுப்பதும் , நிந்திக்கும் விரோதிகளை அழிக்கக் கூடிய பெருமாளின் ஒளிகளை காப்பதும் பாதுகையே …

என்று பாடுகிறார் ,.,,,,ஒரு பாசுரதிலேயே இத்தனை அர்த்தங்கள் என்றால் , இது போன்று 1000 பாசுரங்களை ஒரே இரவில் ஒருவர் இயற்றியது எவ்வளவு பெரிய சாதனை …

‌ஆச்சாரியன் திருவடிகளே சரணம்

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