Aneka Koti Namaskarams.
No tensions. Adiyen oru pechukkuthan sonnen. I too understand that Swami does Dharma Kainkaryams through these CDs. Adiyen Dasa Upanishadgalayum request pannalai. Only requested a 5 min audio in relation to our discussion.?
You are absolutely right Swami. You were careful in the statements. But, Adiyen’s question was slightly different. Adiyen discussed only about Brahma-Jiva-Jada bedha and not Jiva-Jiva bedha.
Swamy. Adiyen once told you that I am a Madhva by birth. So, may be you think I am always speaking from Dvaita Vedanta. Please forget that.
But, I am open to all three Philosophies. In fact, my life goal is to understand these three Siddhantas (Advaita, Visishtadvaita and Dvaita) and understand Vedanta as Vedanta.
Adishankararkum Ramanujarkum favoura pesi pala murai saka Madhvarkalidam Adiyen vaangi kattikondirukkiren.
Jiva Brahma bedham pesi Advaitikalidamum Vangikattindirukken.
Out of thousands and thousands of people only one starts doing Atma Vicharam. But, no one knows Atma completely as per Lord Krishna in Gita.
Advaitatin Thandhai Adishankarar endru dhan karudhapadugirar. Anal, Avarum Jiva Brahma bedam patri than pesugirar.
Jiva and Jiva may be equal in status in liberated state. You loose your name and I loose my name. Anandham may also be same. But, a Jiva differs from Jiva in Kainkaryam to Perumal.
As per Dvaita Sampardayam Brahma and Vayu do Pradhana Kainkaryams to Hari. But, here let me not take stand of Dvaita. Let us go by Srivaishnavam only.
If there is no difference among Muktatmas and the identity is completely lost, then why names like Anantan, Garudan, Vishwaksenar etc among Nithya Suris.
No one does Kainkaryam to Perumal like Thayaar. She enjoys highest level of Anandam by being one with Him.
Next is Seshan. Nindral Kudaiyam, Amarnthal Singasanamam etc. He is Pradana Kainkaryan among Nithya Suris.
Next comes Garuda, Vishwaksenar etc.
There is similarity in Jivas in terms of bliss but they don’t mingle. As you rightly said, they only lose identity.
However, the question raised was about differences between Brahmam and Jiva. It’s not between Jiva and Jiva. So, let us address the question directly without diversions.
It may be difficult to digest if I say Adishankara Bagavad Padar also differentiates Brahmam and Jiva even in state of liberation. Below is exactly from Shankara Brahma Sutra Bashya. I didn’t alter a single word from Advaita book I read.
“The released soul attains all lordly powers except the power of creation etc on account of Ishvara being the subject matter of all texts where creation etc are described and the released soul not being mentioned in that connection.
If it be said that the released soul attains absolute powers on account of direct teaching of scriptures, we say no, for the scriptures declare that the released souls attain Him who entrusts Sun etc with their offices and resides in those spheres.
And there is a form of the Supreme Lord which is beyond all created things, because so the scriptures declares His existence in a two fold form.
And thus Perception and Inference show.
And because of the indications in the scriptures of equality of the released soul with the Lord only with respect to enjoyment.
There is no return for these released souls on account of scriptural declaration to that effect”.
Brahma Sutras ends like this. Anal, Avarum Jiva Brahma bedam patri than pesugirar.
Brahma Sutras clearly states that Brahmam and Jiva can be compared only in terms of bliss but a Jiva does not attain absolute powers of Brahmam even in state of Moksha. We may debate that Chatur Muka Brahma and other Devas have ability to create. Still, they are capable of creating only because Brahmam is their Antaryami. Otherwise, they are not equal to Brahmam who is none other than Lord Sriman Narayana.
Further size of Jiva is analyzed in Brahma Sutras. Adi Shankarar says, if Jiva is infinite, then it means Jiva is omnipresent. One who is omnipresent cannot move as he has no place to move. But, as per scriptures, Jiva moves to various loka like Swarga, Naraka, Booloka etc. Hence infinity is applicable to Brahmam and a Jiva is only a size of anu (atom).
Thirumoolar says, “If we take a hair of cow and cut it into hundred thousand (that is one lakh parts), one part of that cut hair is the size of a Jiva”. But, Brahmam is always infinite.
In the state before creation, Jiva is in complete ignorance. Only released souls are not affected. Jada is insentient. But, Brahmam is 100% conscious always and omniscient. So, before Sristi, Jiva and Jada may be in union with Brahmam but they are certainly not comparable with Brahmam.
If all Jivas loses identity while in union with God before creation, then on what basis Jivas are segregated and Brahma with other Devas are identified for their posts.
Even in state of union with Brahmam before creation, Jivas remain separate from Brahmam and they are also differentiated from each other.
That’s why based on one’s good deeds, they get posts like Brahma, Rudra, Indra etc.
Nithya Samsaris, though in union with God before creation, fall into Samsara based on Karma.
When it comes to Jada, comparison with Brahmam is directly rejected by all Acharyas. Adishankara Bagavad Padar, in his Aparoksha Anubuthi directly states that one who compares Brahmam with Jada is Agyani. He also differentiates Brahmam and Jada.
Still not convinced. Below is from Sri Bashya of Bagavad Ramanujar.
ஜீவாத்மா முக்தியடைந்த பின், பரமாத்மாவை மிகவும் ஒத்த நிலையை அடைகிறான் என்பது உண்மையே. ஆனால் அவனுக்கு பரமாத்மாவைப்போல் உலகுகளை ஆக்கி, அளித்து, அழிக்கும் திறன் கிடையாது. ஏனெனில் பரமாத்மாவைப் பற்றிக் கூறுமிடங்களில் எல்லாம் பரமாத்மா தனித்திருந்து படைப்பவராகவே காட்டப்படுகிறது.
Bagavad Ramanujar sonnadhil tripthiya?
Further in Muktikopanishad, Hanuman asks Lord Rama about various types of Mukti.
Lord Rama says, Kaivalya Mukti is common for all. But, based on their Sadhanas their enjoyment in state of liberation differs into four types.
Anandham progresses more in below sequence of Muktis. They are Saloka, Sarubhya, Saameebya and Sayujya Mukti.
So, from my question, Brahmam is never completely equal to Jiva or Jada, may be in the state of union before creation or even in state of liberation.
Brahmam is Brahmam and He is the one supreme reality always in any situation.
This is not simply from Shri Madhvacharyar point of view, but from the view of even Adishankarar and Bagavad Ramanujar.
Brahma Sutras and Upanishads are Pramanas.
If you have even doubts in Upanishads, please read Brahma Sutras which are specifically given by Badarayanar to explain contradicting statements in Upanishads. Please buy some books rather than referring to internet. Books in my library and Archa Vigrahams are only property I felt worth spending for.
Swami. Adiyen type panni kai valikkaradhu. En manaivi pillai eppovum aanmigam pesinde irukkir engalai gavanikka mattengarirnu karichi kotra. Adiyene oru arai vekkadu. Idhulla aduthavalukku pramanathai eduthu solla adiyenukku gyanamillai. Pirarukku solvadhai vida Adiyen mudhalil gnanam adaivathu indriyamayadhadhu.
Edho Bagavanai pattri pesumbodhu indha ulagathaiye marandhu magizhchiyil thilaikiren. Otherwise, I never thought of debating with anyone. Only happiness i have in this world is thinking, speaking, gaining knowledge about Baghavan and doing Kainkaryams to His Archa. Iruppinum Samsara bhandam azhaikiradhu.
Thaane Bhagavanudaya sothu endru ninaikkamal adiyenai avargal sothaga ninaikirargal. Satru vittu koduthuthan pogavendi irukkiradhu.
Agave vidai perugiren. Manam punpadum padi yedhavadhu pesiyirundhal mannikkavum.
Adiyenin Achariyarana Shri Raghavendra Swamigal Thirupadhangalukkum pala Dharma kainkaryangal seiyyum adiyenin Manasiga Acharyar Shri Velukkudi Swamigalin Thirupadhangalukkum adiyenin aneka Koti namaskarangal.
Anmigathil sandheham iruppin thelivirkaga Shri Velukkudi Swamigalidam nichayam varuven. Enpani audiokkal moolam migundha payan perugiren.
Shri Velukkudi Swamigalidam indha jenmavileye Adiyen mukthiadaiya vendum endru aasirvadhikkumaru vendugiren. Acharyar recommendation illama Moksham kidaiyadhu.
Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan Pranesh.
Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!