Vaishnava lakshanam – Aatma Sakshatkaaram

Updated 8 hours ago in General
59 on September 16, 2020

Namaskaram.

I have a query on the Vaishnava lakshanam characteristics. I do not intend to embarrass anyone. I have great respect to our purvacharyars who gave guidelines.

I have read that in a document on Vaishnava lakshanam, Vaishnavas to avoid association with avaishnavas. One in spiritual life, need to work towards Aatma Sakshatkaaram / atma dharshanam. In this line, one will understand that all atmas are same and there is no bodily difference also. Enpani audio #1856 is referred here. Then I feel it is not correct to guide to avoid association with avaishnavas, whatever may be the reason, since Aatma Sakshatkaaram is very important.

It just occurred to me and hence I have posted.

adiyen

 
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4 on September 16, 2020

Swami, this link will clear all the doubts

on September 16, 2020

on September 16, 2020

The 2nd one answers . however the 1st one is an add-on offer swami, enjoy
Adiyen Dasan

on September 16, 2020

Ramanuja-ParaKalandasan swamy,

Thanks for sharing the link.
It is one hour duration. I will listen and come back.

adiyen

on September 17, 2020

Ramanuja-ParaKalandasan swamy,

I listened to the second one. It is mentioned clearly that vaishnavite is the one who believes in Lord Narayanan and himself as dasan without affixing any other characteristics. My understanding is that the one who took pancha samskara is called a vaishnavite. Hence, for me a clear definition of vaishnavite is eluding.

Regarding, the answer to my query in this discourse, it is a bit disappointing to me. If one has to follow that then it will be difficult to live with family. I am not for that. As a samsari we have social obligation to fulfill. Will it not be an apacharam, if our duties to family are not done. I posted this to get the clarity based on hearing such things with the social life of vaishnavites. 

adiyen

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5 on September 16, 2020

Srimate Ramnujaye NAmaha!

Swamy, I think the guideline given to not associate with non-vaishnavas has to be taken with the proper context and place.

Initially when one’s faith is not strong, it is better to remain in the company of vaishnavas, because at budding stage when faith has not matured, any body might come and present some logic which might change our mind about the philosophy of Absolute Truth.. So this is  like a metal cover set around a budding young plant..

When one’s faith is still maturing, one may associate with others for minimal worldly duties.. but not for intimate discussion of philosophical/spiritual discussions.

Subsequently when one’s faith is strong on Acharya and Krishna, then one can associate as necessary for one’s service of spreading the knowledge one has received 

In Bhagawatas like Velukkudi Swami had applied this principle will we all be able to learn and hear from him?  So association is allowed if necessary for service.

Adiyen

 

on September 16, 2020

enpanifan swamy,
Thanks for the details.

Is that guidelines only to protect a vaishnavite from getting misleading from his path?. If that is the case, he should be advised not to indulge in any philosophical/spiritual discussions with others. Why totally try to prohibit?.

Everything is the creation of Lord. In the name of guidelines, if such restrictions are put, doesn’t it mean Bhagavan apacharam. (I do not know how far I am correct. This is only my thought).

adiyen

on September 16, 2020

Namaskaram Swami

It is absolutely fine to get involved in philosophical and spiritual discussions, however, in order to get to know even much more insights from various philosophies one should be firm in one’s own. For eg. Swami Ramanujar was a Vishitadvaiti, even then he did his Kalakshepams from an Advaiti Sanyasi namely Yadva Prakashar, though he involved himself in philosophical discussions with him, but he was firm in his Siddhantam and conveyed the correct insight of Vedantam over Brahmam. So, in order to get involved in all such discussion it is a pre- requisite for an individual to know his Siddhantam first, then only he won’t be mesmerised with the flowery words of speech of Wrong insightful Vedantis and will walk in the correct path reaching Moksham.

And it won’t be a Bhagwat Apacharam. 

Do listen once to the 2nd Audio once, above. 

ANd also what ENpani fan Swami stated is to the point, Swami

Adiyen Dasan

on September 16, 2020

Ramanuja-ParaKalandasan swamy,

Thank you.
The point on philosophical and spiritual discussions and the firmness of the Vaishnavite is well taken. Under such situation, my point is Vaishnavite’s association could be anything except the philosophical and spiritual discussion to avoid him to get deviated.

adiyen

Why totally try to prohibit?.
Everything is the creation of Lord. In the name of guidelines, if such restrictions are put, doesn’t it mean Bhagavan apacharamFrom pd_jayaram

Jayaram swamy, namaskaram. When a child has cold or some kind of infection, parents keep the other children away from the infected child. This does not mean they are discriminating against the infected child. In fact, keeping the healthy children away is the best thing we can do for the infected child too. 

However, this ‘keep away’ guideline does not apply to the parents or the doctor. They know how to keep themselves from getting infected while treating the infected child.

As Enpanifan swamy has indicated, Acharyas like our Velukkudi swamy are like the parents or doctors. They interact with us to cure and bring us to normal health. Whereas we are advised to keep our interaction with non-vaishnavas to the basic courtesy level required for social living. Our intimate, heartfelt relationship is directed only towards Vaishnavas.

adiyen dasan.

 

on September 17, 2020

Kambandasan swamy,

we are advised to keep our interaction with non-vaishnavas to the basic courtesy level required for social living.From Kambandasan

I appreciate this and atleast I expected to this to be guidelines. After all we are in a complexly webbed social life wherein we have social obligations. The percentage of vaishnavites are very very less if we go as per pancha samskara as the requisite for a vaishnavite.

Yes. How long one will keep the infected children away?. The child has to be back to mingle with other children after cure.

adiyen

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5 on September 17, 2020

Swamy,
Just a personal thought;
avoiding association with avaishnavas:
Possibly some of those may be least bothered about aahara niyamam…If associated, one may due to need for pleasing others, may succumb to such non-following of aahara niyamam.
It is kind of: if one is prone to get angry, we say one should avoid circumstances that would induce state of being angry… Isn’t? (Safe way; while people do say amidst chaotic situation, you have to show your restraint and not get angry).

Adiyen Ramanujadaasan.

on September 17, 2020

Swamy,

Thanks for sharing your views. I am sorry to differ with that. I believe in building up self confidence and firmness in our goal to deal with the situation rather than running away.

adiyen

I am sorry to differ with that. I believe in building up self confidence and firmness in our goal to deal with the situation rather than running away.From pd_jayaram

Jayaram swamy, namaskaram. The way we apply this is not a binary decision – this or that; black or white. In practise we follow both simultaneously in different proportions as demanded by the circumstances.

Let us take the covid situation as example. We do our very best to keep our immune system is good condition (eg. by taking kabasuraneer etc), at the same time we keep ourselves away from those infected. With most people ‘keeping away’ is our main strategy of self preservation. However, if someone within the family is affected, then we do all necessary services to them; in doing so we will naturally relax some of the ‘keeping away’ guidelines but do more on our ‘boost the immune system’ aspects.

In each situation we ask “what should I do, how should I handle this situation in a way pleasing to Perumal?”

Sastram NEVER prescribes anything impractical. Sastram is meant for humans to live as a society and not to make everyone live as a solitary individual. So, all instructions are guiding us on how to life in this complex world of relationships and activities without getting entangled in attachment to our relationships and reactions to our activities.

Regarding human interactions, we interact with everyone in a humble loving manner such that it is pleasing to Perumal. Our attachment is to Acharyan, Perumal and vasihnaas, and not to all the people or objects we are interacting with. The lotus leaf does not keep itself away from the water or mud; it interacts with these elements very very closely; but its attachment it not to the mud or water; its complete focus is only on making the lotus for Perumal.

Regarding activities, if we are doing things only as kainkaryam to Perumal, with the clarity that I am not the doer, the result does not belong to me, it is all Perumal’s, then we don’t incur any karmic reactions to our activities.

Please study Bhagavad Gita chapter 5, slokams 6 to 13.

adiyen dasan.

 

 

on September 18, 2020

Kambandasan swamy,

Thank you for your response.

I have been practicing detached attachment for about 25 years, but might have not perfected. Hence, I would continue my association with fellow human with that quality. It will further enable me to strengthen that quality.

With regard to the slokas mentioned by you,

https://www.holy-bhagavad-gita.org/chapter/5/verse/10

“BG 5.10: Those who dedicate their actions to God, abandoning all attachment, remain untouched by sin, just as a lotus leaf is untouched by water.”

This states “abandoning all attachment”. I believe  it is meant for attachment to human also. In that case why to selectively get associated?. One has to dissociate with everyone.

Sastram is meant for humans to live as a society and not to make everyone live as a solitary individual. From Kambandasan

I fully agree and stressing on this point of all inclusiveness.

adiyen

This states “abandoning all attachment”. I believe  it is meant for attachment to human also. In that case why to selectively get associated?. One has to dissociate with everyone.From pd_jayaram

Yes, this slokam says ‘abandon all attachments; it does not say abandon all associations. How is it possible to associate yet not be attached? The lotus leaf example explains this.

The sole purpose of all sastram and hence the core principle of all sastram is to get us  completely attached to Perumal and Him alone. So, all other statements are subordinate to this one and must understood in line with this core principle.

 In many places sastram explains “attach to Perumal”. In many places sastra also says “give up all attachments”. Now at face value these two statements seem to contradict each other; (this is a common fallacy; one of my college professors who was earlier a theist but unfortunately converted to atheism later in life) used to point to this apparent contradiction. “பற்றனைத்தையும் விட வேண்டும் என்றால் இறைவனிடம் வைக்கும் பற்றையும் விடவேண்டும் தானே” என்று வாதிடுவார்!

வள்ளுவர் சொன்ன “பற்றுக பற்றற்றான் பற்றினை அப்பற்றை பற்றுக பற்று விடற்கு” குறளில் இது தெளிவாக விளக்கப்பட்டுள்ளது. *

The correct understanding of this is as follows. The core principle is getting attachment to Perumal. For this we have to give up all other attachments that are hindrance to the core principle. Anything that is favorable for this core principle we accept.

We know going to temple, engaging in services, associating with like minded individuals are all favourable for us to become more and more attached to Perumal; so we eagerly do all these.

We know going to places of ‘mindless time-pass’, engaging in sense enjoyment activities, associating with individials who are not interested in spiritual life, so on, all such engagements are unfavourable for us to become more and more attached to Perumal. So we avoid them, or in unavoidable circumstances we keep it minimum… careful to not get attached during that minimal association.

பகவானிடத்தில் பற்று அதிகரிப்பதற்கு சாதகமானவற்றை ஏற்பதும், சாதகமல்லாதவற்றை நிராகரிப்பதும் நாம் சரணாகதி மார்கத்தில் முன்னேற்றம் காண்பதன் அறிகுறி ஆகும். இக்கருத்தை நம் ஸ்வாமி இந்த எண் பணியில் அழகாக விளக்கியுள்ளார்.

EnPani 1821 வேண்டாததை உடன் விடு; வேண்டியதற்கு ஸங்கல்பம் எடு

 

அடியேன் தாசன்.

* PS: According to our philosophy, Perumal is the goal, and He is the means. This concept is so beautifully brought out in the above quoted Thirukural! Just amazing!! 

on September 19, 2020

swamy,

Thank you for the details and efforts taken by you.

adiyen

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1 on September 19, 2020

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram Swami’s,

 

Segregating the initial question in two parts:

‘1) Poorvacharyas recommendation: 

“.……..I have read that in a document on Vaishnava lakshanam, Vaishnavas to avoid association with avaishnavas………..

2) Questioner perception:

………Then I feel it is not correct to guide to avoid association with avaishnavas, whatever may be the reason………..

 

Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami has graced answer in yesterday 18-Sep’20 Enpani #1870.

 

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.

on September 19, 2020

ElayaAlwar swamy,

Thank you.
adiyen

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1 on September 19, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Yes Swami has graced the answer in enpani 1870.

Swamy’s audio  brought out another important subtle point…Vaishnava is one who is with Vaishnava Qualities..it is not by any other yardstick like birth, etc..

Adiyen

 

on September 19, 2020

enpanifan swamy,

Thank you.
adiyen

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0 on September 19, 2020

Sri. Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy,

Namaskaram.

Thank you for the Enpani audio #1870.

adiyen

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2 on September 19, 2020

enpanifan swamy,

I feel this audio, though covers the points I have raised, it talks about துஷ்டர் which is not the subject of my query. Hence, in my view, it is not the complete and direct reply.

Yes. I will definitely avoid துஷ்டர். As I mentioned, I have been practicing detached attachment. Bhakthas also have provided their views in this thread. So I got the details and can make out the relevant things in this regard.

Over the years, number of associations viz., friends, colleagues, relatives etc., have reduced considerably for me, may be because of my  health issues. I already had thought that it is His play. 

adiyen

on September 20, 2020

Swami do listen to the above video of Sri Vaishnava Lakshmanan.

on September 20, 2020

Ramanuja-ParaKalandasan swamy,

I listened to the second video titled “valam tharum vainavam” referred by you. If you are referring to this, I posted my comment two days back. If your point is something different, probably I am not getting it. In that case, if possible, kindly indicate the time at which it has to be listened.

adiyen

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பெரியோர்களே தாய்மார்களே, உங்க எல்லாருக்கும் அண்ணனுடைய வணக்கம்,

சப்ப மேட்டர், சுருக்கமாக அண்ணன் சொல்லுவோமில்ல,

நல்லவன பாத்தா, நாம மான் போல இருக்கணும், அப்ப தான அண்ணே நம்ம அன்பு வெளிப்படும், நல்லவன் பயந்து ஓட மாட்டாங்க, நம்மகிட்ட பளகுவாங்க.

கெட்டவன பாத்தா, நாம சிங்கம் போல இருக்கணும், அப்ப தான அண்ணே நம்ம கர்ஜன வெளிப்படும், கெட்டவன் பயந்து ஓடுவான், நம்மகிட்ட வால் ஆட்ட மாட்டான்.

இப்ப கதைல twist என்னன்னா, யாரு நல்லவன் யாரு கேட்டவன்னு நம்மளால கண்டுபுடிக்க முடியலே என்னா பண்றது அண்ணே?, நம்ம அப்பனும் அப்பத்தாவும் சொல்லி தரல, அதுனால இங்க தான் நம்ம வாழ்க்கை பாடம் கத்துகொடுக்குது:
“ஓடுகிற ஆத்துல கை விட்டா, கையுல மாட்டாம நழுவுற மீன் மாதிரி வாழ காதுக்கணும், எப்படி தாமற இலையில தண்ணீர் ஒட்டாம நழுவுமோ அது மாதிரி வாழ காதுக்கணும்”.

இதையும் தான நமக்கு எல்லாம் பெரிய அண்ணன் கண்ணன் எளனூறு வரில டாப் டக்கரா கவிதை பாடி, சூப்பர் டூப்பர் கீதை பாடல்ல சொன்னாரு.

நீர் உள்ள மட்டும் மீன் குஞ்சு துள்ளும்.
நீர் ஆழம் கண்டாலும் நெஞ்சு ஆழம் காண முடியாது.

அண்ணன் நான் சொல்றத கூட்டி கழிச்சு பார்த்தா கணக்கு சரியா வரும்.

6 days ago

Namaskaram,
Exactly, well said Usdath!!
It is not absolutely possible to abruptly get rid off this லௌகீக , social life… you have to manoeuvre it ( handle) properly- like fish- பட்டும் படாமலும். You have to adapt it gradually if you are bound by it completely.
But for some, they can do it sooner…
If you are focusing on it steadly then Bhaghavan will help you to attain the detachment from this social life – that is He will create a congenial atmosphere for you to adapt it.
Soon, you will be in the Sathsang atmosphere. You will then know how to tackle the non sathsang……or social
Life.
Swamigal mentioned about this in his various upanyasams.
Adiyen Ramanujadhasan.

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Namaskaram To all the Bhagwatas

Andal in her Thiruppavai 11th pasuram states the purpose and importance of Bhagwatas.

The 3 reasons which are stated goes as:

1 To make other Chetanas to understand the Sambhandam of every jeevan and Bhagwan.

2 After having known the Sabhandam, every chetanan would want it to increase and these Bhagwatas are the ones who would guide appropriately of to increase the Anubhavams.

3To do Vritha Kritanam, i.e to console at the times when  Bhagwan tries to test his bhakta, in order to increase more Aasai or Ava towards him.

At those times, Bhagwatas are the ones who would make another Bhagwata to feel comfortable and wait for him patiently and thereby also to increase more of Premam towards him.

Now just think in this sphere, yes it is true that everyone is a Bhagwata, one must not discriminate anyone but has the other individual understood this, if not, then it is only for now that one hasn’t understood , but as soon as he gets Sukratam through Good deeds, one  Bhagwata would definitely be met by that individual who would follow the above mentioned 3, and would be guided towards Emperuman.

Also, For the time being who are not part of a Bhagwata Goshti, for them it is not quite possible that they would guide any other individual who desires to get in right association which could lead him towards Emperuman, properly.

That is why it is said to get engaged in Satsangam and to avoid as far as possible Dursangam 

(Individuals who haven’t understood the Pancha Artha Swaroopam).

 

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The above post, is an excerpt from Krishnan Swami’s Margazhi 2018 Upanayasam .

The below link

4 days ago

Ramanuja-ParaKalandasan swamy,

Thank you for taking extracts and posting. I listened to that portion only.

I discussed in person with a couple of bhagavathas. I also studied the responses from bhagavathas in this thread and went through few texts. After analysing, I concluded the following:
Theory is different from practice.

adiyen

Swami, could u explain ur conclusion

3 days ago

Swamy,

Whatever I have given is my understanding and conclusion for me only. In general, social life is not completely abandoned by several (? or few) of the bhagavatas. I also fall in line with that. I do not want to completely abandon the social life. I am already following dissociated association in my social life. More so, I strongly believe and experienced, if someone follows constant remembrance on Him, he can neither be deviated and nor be shaken.

adiyen

False atleast in my case swamy

I agree with you Udaiyavar swamy. “social life is not completely abandaned by several bhagavatas’ because they have understood what is means to interact with material world and material relationships with due detachment; like the lotus leaf interacting with water and mud. When we don’t understand this clearly we can not practise this; (understanding comes by acharyan anugraham). When we can not practise this, it will appear to us that the others are speaking the theory but not following in practise. if I wear a certain colour glass, the world will appear to be the same colour.

It is 100% true that if oen follows constant remembrance of Him, he can neither be deviated and not be shaken. We all can hope and pray we will fall in this category. Sastram clearly cautions us how even slight carelessness in our worldly interactions would get us into attachments and entrap us!

Example 1: Ajamilan was such a pure person who was dutifully and devotionally assisting his father in his kainkaryam. One day when he went to get flowers for worship, he accidentally saw an undesirable sight. Instead of ignoring that scene, he frequently recollected that scene in aversion. Soon the aversion turned into attachment…. and the rest of the story we all know. Even here, his earlier ‘constant remembrance of Him’ is what made him name his son Narayana and rescued him eventually. But had he avoided what sastram advises us to avoid (i.e. ignore the bad event and not feel the aversion repeatedly; instead take the mind to positive devotional engagements) he could have avoided a lot of trouble for himself.

Examle 2: Emperor Bharatha had renounced his kingdom and was practising constant remembrance of Him. But one day by accident he came across a helpless little deer. He could have just done the required help and moved on unattached. But he somehow got attached to the deer and thus delayed his journey back to Vaikuntha by two more life times! 

So, there is a reason why sastram constantly tells us practise detachment in our worldly interactions. If I can practise all my actions as a kainkaryam to Perumal, fully aware that He is the actual controller, then I can avoid thinking myself to be the protector of someone or other such roles. This practise will help me do my social duties sincerely but without attachment or aversion. I hope I can somehow reach this state of equilibrium soon….. withint this life!

Thank you.

adiyen dasan.

PS: உடையவர் ஸ்வாமி, எம்பெருமானார் உபய விபூதிகளையும் உடையவராதலால் அவர் உடையவர் என்று அழைக்கப்படுகிறார் அல்லவா? எனவே “உடயவர்” என்றல்லாமல் “உடையவர்” என்று எழுதுவதுதானே சரி? For your kind consideration. adiyen.

நன்றி சுவாமி இப்பொழுது சந்தோஷமா 🙏🙏

3 days ago

swamy,

Thank you for acknowledging my views.

adiyen

உடையவர் திருவடியில் இருக்கும்வரை எல்லோருக்கும் சந்தோஷம்தானே ஸ்வாமி! 🙂

2 days ago

 swamy,

Timely one.

Thank you Jayaram Swamy.

regarding the earlier longer posting, kindly note both sides of the coins are highlighted.

One on hand, we must practise not acting as per the dictates of our attachments and aversions. This practise is essential for constant remembrance of Him. In the initial stages (like we are present now) we may fail several times; nevertheless we must strive in this direction. We can not give up on this thinking it is not at all possible to practise detachment in our dealings with the worldly interactions. I can say I have made significant progress in this direction compared to what I was half my age ago. But still a very very very very long way to go before perfection. Nevertheless we need to keep trying. 

On the otherhand, when we are sincerely endeavoring, if we happen to make a mistake and lose our focus on Perumal because of some unfortunate distraction, the earlier devotional activities will definitely rescue us and give us renewed opportunity to progress.

Both sides are highlighted.

Thank you very much.

adiyen dasan. 

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