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Vasanaas and Karma

Updated on September 5, 2017 in Karma
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9 on September 1, 2017

Namaskaram Swamy

Adiyen is ardent devotee of Swamy for the past nine years.  I am thankful to Swamy for guiding us as to how to approach this life.

Swamy, I can understand that athma is anaathi and karma is also anaadhi and that if an athman relinquishes both papam and punyam it reaches nithyavibudhi.  Still, I couldn’t understand certain aspects.

My doubts are

1. What would have been the karma of an athman during its very first birth? On what basis will an athman           start its very first birth?

2. Will Bagavan incorporate good and bad karma or only good karma to an athman so that it starts its birth           and gets into birth and death cycle?

3. What is the meaning of vasanaas?

4. What is the difference between karma and vasanaas?

Swamy,  I kindly request you to clarify these doubts.

With respects & regards,

Adiyen Venkhatesh.

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Srinivasan Pranesh 1 on September 1, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swamy

Adiyen is not qualified to reply. However, Adiyen raised your first doubt already to Swamy and got reply, may be a year back.

Karma is also originless as scriptures does not give any origin for Karma. When Jiva misuses his Swathantaryam (independence), he falls into Karma. This was the response obtained.

Not commenting anything on 2, 3 and 4 as Adiyen is not willing to give Adiyen’s understanding. Former one is from Shri Velukkudi Swamy himself and hence Adiyen posted.

vikraminside on September 4, 2017

????

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Srinivasan Pranesh 1 on September 1, 2017

Below was Adiyen’s query related to yours.

It is well known to all that Lord Narayana holds the universe during Pralaya and Creates again when time comes. All Jivas with Karma except those who attained Moksha are again sent to material universe after creation in different forms. Based on the karma, Jivas suffer and enjoy in material universe. So, any number of times universe faces creation destruction cycle and any number of times Brahmas are created after their life span, the Jivas fall into birth and death cycle till they attain Moksha. If birth and death cycle is based on karma, how these Jivas get trapped for the first time into these when every one was pure and completely knowledgeable? That is, when these Jivas were created for the first time without any karma account, what made them fall into karma? Any answers from our scriptures? Also, are new Jivas created by Brahman in every cycle along with old Jivas or it is the old Jivas alone which are circulated by God into samsara?

Below is the answer obtained in Enpani WhatsApp group from a Volunteer. Hope this was from Swamy.

Answers to queries:

Misconception = there was a time when an atma had Zero Karma.
Where did you come across this statement? Can you support it with evidence from scripture?
Same for “new jivas”.
Karma is anadi. We have exerted our freedom always and have consciously decided not to join the Lord, since time immemorial. That is why we were here and we are here. Hopefully, Ramanuja Sambandam will deliver us 🙂

Hope the above answers.

Srinivasan Pranesh on September 1, 2017

This was answered on April 5, 2016 for Swamy’s reference.

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vikraminside 4 on September 4, 2017

Adiyen’s small observation
The term anAdi can be considered as starting time unbound. In Srirangam during Andavan thirunakshatram upanyasam by then Sri kAryam Swamy , said ” Jaya Vijaya got to come back in quick births but that quick birth itself took Ravana lot of chathur yugas to be born ” . Adiyen don’t remember the count properly have to relisten the recorded version.

Basic understanding is too much time is no time Not valid for any representations. The starting point has to be perumAl as he is also anAdi. The veda we have currently is only a subset. Many shAkAs are lost. So saying as no reference in scriptures may not be appropriate. It is a wider assumption adiyen would say. Secondly, veda is also apourushEyam ideally it is also anAdi. Logically we can conclude many such things.

Perumal is also anAdi & anantham. AthmA is anAdi but has anham. In the sense it attains liberation. Still athmA never get destroyed as per Bhagavath Gita, even after liberation, so we can logically conclude Athma is also anantham in that sense as it will be with perumAl always.

Please correct these understandings or adiyen request Swami to explain in EnPaNi.

Dasanudasan

Srinivasan Pranesh on September 4, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swamy

I leave it to Shri Velukkudi Swamy to explain.

Adiyen opinion sonna adhu debatela mudiyaradhu. Though Adiyen enjoy it, it is not welcome by others in group.

Just one point. Perumal is Antaryami but not starting point of Jivas. Jivas are equally eternal.

Request Swamy to go through more references to understand.

Few things are to be understood in primary sense and few thing in secondary sense. The real challenge in understanding Vedanta is this segregation. This applies to Sariram-Sariri relation also.

Oru example. Let us consider two statements.

1. That village is in Ganga.
2. The fish is in Ganga.

First statement to be understood in secondary sense. That village is in Ganga means, the village is on banks of Ganga. If we consider village is in water, it will hits logics and become unanswerable.

In second statement, the fish is in Ganga water and pretty direct. This can be taken in primary sense.

Similarly, Jivas are non-functional without Brahmam. As Brahmam is Antaryami and in seperable, they become functional. Hence, Perumal is the source. This is how Bagavad Ramanujar also explains Brahmam as Upadana Karana. But, in reality, Jivas are as eternal as Perumal and sourceless.

If we say Perumal is source in primary sense, it will lead so much of unanswerable questions logically. So, it is fine as long as it is in secondary sense.

May be, Adiyen is trying to convey the same understanding of Swamy in a different angle, due to my lack of understanding and Agyanam.

If so, please correct.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

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vikraminside on September 5, 2017

Dhanyosmi
Devar is correct adiyen.

Infinity Swamy no starting points or end points

“Hence, Perumal is the source. This is how Bagavad Ramanujar also explains Brahmam as Upadana Karana. But, in reality, Jivas are as eternal as Perumal and sourceless.”

“If we say Perumal is source in primary sense, it will lead so much of unanswerable questions logically. So, it is fine as long as it is in secondary sense”

KAranan Nee, Karpavai Nee, Katravai Nee, Narkirisai NAranan Nee
Nangu Arindhen NAn

KarpAr RAma pirAnai AllAl matrum karparO?

mUvulagu uNdu umizhndha mudhalva nin nAmam kaRRa
Avalippu udaimai kaNdAy arngamA nagaruLAnE

Dasanudasan

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vikraminside on September 5, 2017

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

Today’s audio EnPaNi #765 tiruvattAru Aadi Kesavan before creation of brahma .

Aadi means beginning

Thiru Ananthapuram is After creating brahma

SO PERUMAL IS THE SOURCE
????

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Srinivasan Pranesh on September 5, 2017

Danyosmi Swamy

Thanks for the explanation. I am yet to listen today’s Enpani audio. Will listen today evening.

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