Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,
Shri Velukkudi Swamigallukku Namskaaram!. Swami heard the Enpani 1909 reg tackling anxiety and sleep.
It was explained that sleep is a process where positive energy is transmitted from Brahmam (Bhagavaan) to us.
I have a doubt on why is then sleep considered a taamsic process and we need to take bath and wipe the place where slept etc.?
Kindly clarify my ignorance. Dhanyosmi.
Adiyen
Ignorance is taamsic and as swami mentioned anything in excess is dangerous. Isn’t it said Adikama Amudu kooda nanju aagum.
Krishna in Gita 13th chapter, stated , an individual to be shuddhan i.e with Mano , Vakh and kaiyangal , ( mind, speech and action) for this to succeed it is necessary to start with the basic pratyaksham shareeram shudhi
And it is necessary for a mumukshu, kaivalya Arthi or just a layman to practice meditation or Dhyanam which differs for the above mentioned but one thing is common i.e Sthala shudhi, for dedication and unwavering focus. More has been explained in Gita 6th chapter
Dhanyosmi swami, I agree the above perspective, but my doubt was even during limited sleep if we are getting positive energy from meeting with Bhagawaan, why are we considered asuchi after sleep?
Adiyen
Swami, again this body is considered as Asuchi, not the Atma, the real self. if we ignore this fact, then it will only be like a boomerang. Also, for the atma, Asuchi is pavam Karmas, and one who delays or does’nt take bath as in this case, that is counted as a pavam (Asuchi).
Listening to upanayasams and kalakshepams without taking bath is asuchi to the body but suchi ( purifying ) to the atma.
En pani swamy, I don’t the answer to the question. But from the example that certain kind of tapas can be ‘good’ for the soul but hurting for the body, I understand that the body and soul could be experiencing opposites.
Nevertheless I am eager to know the answer to your question. I hope someone can answer.
adiyen dasan.
PS: When I addressed ‘Hearer of Swamy’s upanyasam’ as Shravan, he seems to like it and changed his id too! So I am tempted to do a similar translation for you. If தங்கள் பணி விசிறியாக இருப்பதானால், தங்களை திருஆலவட்டம் என்று அழைக்கலாம் தானே? அல்லது திருக்கச்சிதாசன் என்று அழைக்கலாமோ? தங்கள் விருப்பம் எதுவோ?!!
அதிக பிரசங்கியை பொறுத்தருளவும்.
Srimate Ramanujaye NAmaha
Dhanyosmi swami’s for sharing your thoughts on the question.
Ramanujadasan swamy, the example given as “Listening to upanayasams and kalakshepams without taking bath is asuchi to the body but suchi ( purifying ) to the atma” needs to reconsidered as the asuchi in this case has arisen from the activity of not taking bath and not because of the activity of hearing upanyasam.
Kambandasan swamy, the example of tapas hurting the body but benefitting the soul is close to the point in discussion but still does tapas make the body asuchi needs to be thought of..
But based on the answers given as clue, as per BG sloka
” sarvasya caham hrdi sannivisto
mattah smrtir jnanam apohanam ca
vedais ca sarvair aham eva vedyo
vedanta-krd veda-vid eva caham”
Some inspiration has come, which i share below.. and the Bhagawaatas can take it forward and complete the answer.
I was thinking about which is the activity which is good for soul but bad for body.. it is natural death at which point soul looses significant bad karma and gets new body or reaches Vaikuntam. But the body starts decaying and unclean due to absence of soul.
Similarly i think sastras refer to sleep as mini death (heard in swami’s upanyasam somewhere..), may be the soul body connection is reduced..( not sure of the details of how and to what extent, this part is not heard from upanyasam ).
During sleep, soul is connected to Brahamam as per swami’s upanyasam ( probably sookshuma indiryams as well).
But the body is cleansing itself of waste during our sleep ( liver acts between 11 to 3.. so sleep during this time is mandatory for normal people), so the body is generating lot of waste during the sleep. (as per medical science, english/ayurveda)
Also as in death, the soul is partly not in body perhaps??? (not sure..)
So this seems to be an example where the body and soul are doing two different tasks at the same time. perhaps this happens through out the day as well.. like when we are hearing upanyaasam, soul is getting purified, but the body is generating waste in the form of sweat or other body excretions and eventually we may have to take bath.. but we do not notice them as they are short and separated activities..
I think i have shared all the thoughts that came in.. may be some one can make it more coherent and see if references from sastraas can be given.
Adiyen
P.S: Kambandasan swamy, Regaring the naamkaranam, is it allowed after 3 years :)-
Also my perspective of “Enpanifan” was fan of En pani audios of Swami. not yet reached the stage of being a fan of my service..
Well, when one engages in cleaning the temple premises, body gets ‘dirtied’ by the soul gets purified.
தாங்கள் தங்களை கைங்கர்யத்தின் விசிறியாக கருதாமல் இருக்கலாம்; அது தங்கள் பார்வை. ஆனால் ஸ்வாமி திருக்கச்சி நம்பிகளின் அடியாருகடியாராக தானே கருதுகிறீர்? எனவே திருக்கச்சி-தாசானுதாசன் என்பது தங்களுக்கு நங்கு பொருந்தும்.
அடியேனின் கூற்றை வழிமொழிய விரும்பும் அடியார்கள் தயவுசெய்து இப்பதிவின் ‘இதயத்தை’ ஒருமுறை துடிக்கச் செய்யவும். (please click the heart).
அடியேன் தாசன்.
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram Enpanifan Swami,
Adiyen believe, devareer has taken it too far about “Asuchi” comparing it with “Sleep” which is a BrahmAm Anubhavam as Velukkudi Swami has graced in Enpani #1909.
Inorder to understand this Sleep as BrahmAm Anubhavam, some Baselines like தூக்கம், ஓயிவு, ஆகாசம் needs to be understood since all are not same. If devareer understand this baselines then we can proceed the explanation as why Velukkudi Swami has graced Sleep as BrahmAm Anubhavam, if not adiyen have to explain baseline தூக்கம், ஓயிவு, ஆகாசம் difference first with Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami’s Aasirvadham.
Kindly please clarify devareer’s stance first?
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.
Srimate Ramaanujaye Namaha,
Dhanyosmi swami, the doubt has been clarified by mercy of Velukkudi swamy and Krishna’s mercy. As you notice above, jointly all Bahgavatas have come to conclusion and understood that sleep is a brahma anubhavam for the soul but in parallel the body is undergoing detoxification and purification. So we need to cleanse the body after sleeping.
So there are no contradictions.
Dhanyosmi.
Adiyen
Thirukachhidaasanudasan
Body undergoes detoxification, purification all the 24 hours whether we sleep or not. Not just during sleep. Sweating, Excreting are all detoxification process only. During sleep, body also heals, so that is one additional step. But we are not taking bath for all such purification process so why only for sleep?
Yes swami the answer to this question can be seen in three parts.
In addition in todays enpani audio 1922 Swami has explained about bathing.
Adiyen
Thirukachidaasanudasan
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Namaskaram ntgk swami,
Swami’s Enpani focussed on one of the section “Sleep’ for BrahmaM AnubhavAm. That doesn’t mean this is the only method.
Devareer,s understanding is limited to Bodily purification based on devareer’s comment, but please listen carefully on Swami’s Enpani, it’s about BrahmaM Anubhavam (Athma-ParamAthma AnubhavAm), so while in this activity, the other Bodily purifications are By-Products which is not the focus of Swami’s Enpani.
(ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.
adiyen would like to feed some points for discussion. If we don’t sleep does it require a bath for physical purification?We have read in ancient times when sages used to do ‘tapas’ over a long period of time they will be covered with sand/dust/anthill etc.So definitely they’ll not be taking bath for the physical body,but they are in communion with Perumal.So, is the purification of the soul more important than body?As neechas like me can’t drive in that direction all along daily physical purification for the body with other rituals can drive towards soul uplifting!Also a bath to the body definitely activates the system and may be the soul too.
Srimate Raamanujaye Namaha,
Swami these points are good food for thought. I would like to add more to this context that, the purification or detoxification our body does daily and more so during sleep is due to a) the food we eat and b) the thoughts we intake during the day.
But in case of those rishis, there were almost fasting and almost no other actions or thoughts.. so nothing to detoxify perhaps..
Just sharing my thoughts..please add on or edit as necessary.
Adiyen
Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha
“I have a doubt on why is then sleep considered a taamsic process and we need to take bath and wipe the place where slept etc.?”
Sleep is considered tamasic because Mukta Bhagavathas don’t sleep. They don’t need rest because they don’t get tired. Sleep is a defect. Sleep is Tamasic because it takes away time of Bagavathas from worshiping Sriman Narayana
Taking bath after sleep, I don’t know. But taking bath before Vishnu Yajnas etc is a must.
Adiyen
