Respecting others other than Lord Krishna

Updated on December 5, 2020 in Daily rituals and practice
22 on December 3, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,

Namaskaaram.

Swami in the recent Mahabharata audio (201 number in enpani app) between 3rd to 6th minute, the dialogue between Sri Krishna and Narada muni is presented.

In that Sri Krishna asks Narada Muni, Whom all do you worship?

Naarada Muni states I worship supreme Lord Kesava and then he gives a list of others he worships, agni,vaayu, Sambhu, Skanda etc, Then says because they are devotees of the Supreme Lord.

But in practice in almost many Vaishnava sampradayas, worshiping demigods (even as devotees of the Lord) is condemned and seen as blackmark as it is not unalloyed devotion to Krishna. But Narada Muni who is acharya of all acharyas has presented the above dialogue to Krishna. So how do we reconcile this? And why has has this change in practice happened over time?

Adiyen

 

 
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why has has this change in practice happened over time?From enpanifan

Thirukkachchi swamy, what change are you referring to?

Narada muni worshiped Perumal and he worshipped His devotees.

We are also advised to worship His devotees, and that practise continues even today. No acharya ever says ‘do not worship His devotees’.

 

What is not good is to worship anyone other than Perumal thinking them to be the Supreme or equal to Him. Narada muni was clear; and he followed it correctly. (please recollect the last in the list of promises made by Nam-paaduvaan in Kaisika mahatmyam).

If we are indeed clear in His unique position, if we are indeed clear that He is our ultimate goal, (and hence, we do not get distracted by the material benefits we may gain from the devatas) and with that clarity we are worshipping His devotees, there is nothing wrong in it. Until we really have that clarity, it is better to keep ourselves away from worshipping them; because our material desires will easily surface and drown us.

adiyen dasan.

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0 on December 3, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha

I’m not qualified but I say as I heard from other Bhagavathas.

Yes swamy, “independent” Puja to demigods/devatas is condemned. Because they are themselves servants of Sriman Narayana. But worshiping Devatas like Vayu devaru/ Hanuman ji is absolutely ok “only” if it’s done with keeping in mind that everything is owned by Sriman Narayana and these Devatas are his servants and “DEVOTEES”. But this shouldn’t be done in wrong attitude.

I firmly believe that Greatest devotee Narada Muni could never do bizzare demigod worship like what majority others do. I also believe that the worship which Narada Muni do to Devatas means not exactly like same worship to Sriman Narayana or Lord Sri Krishna. It’s on different level.

Adiyen

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1 on December 3, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Dhanyosmi swamis for replying and sharing inputs on this topic.

Yes I agree that proper understanding and proper worship of devatas in relation to Sri Krishna is correct. That is how it seemed to have been for long, as we see examples of Panadavas worshipping Shiva lingas, and Shiva ratri being celebrated in Vraja Dham etc.

But in recent days, one of the list of dos and donts given before undergoing samshrayanam/sarangati is that one should not visit other temples. This is the change i was referring to as why it has happened so?

Adiyen

Thirukacchidaasanudasan

on December 3, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha

“But in recent days, one of the list of dos and donts given before undergoing samshrayanam/sarangati is that one should not visit other temples. This is the change i was referring to as why it has happened so?”

I’m not sure Swamy, I’m not qualified but I say what little bit I heard from other Bagavathas.

I guess this must be because nowadays devotees are not understanding or qualified like Narada Muni or other like them. So this don’t visit other temple might came. As per my understanding, Gopies or Gopas didn’t did Shivaratri in Braj. They did in place near Gujarath. Not a issue. Also they didn’t do Shivaratri like what Shaivas or average Shiva devotees do. No. They did Shivaratri keeping in mind and heart that Sriman Narayana is master of all, including Shambu.

For example – Gopis did Katyayini vrat. But that doesn’t mean Gopis didn’t do Sarnagathi to Lord Sri Krishna or Gopis are worshiping Katyayini ji. No. Gopis worshiping Katyayini is totally different and 21st century average person worshiping Katyayini is totally unrelated.

Generally, Devata or Demigods worshiping is strictly prohibited. But Narada Muni or Gopis or others such great devotees might worship certain Devatas but that is different from demigod worship. I guess low persons, like myself, can’t imitate such deeds because I’m nowhere near to great devotees like Narada Muni. So for persons like me, such restrictions come.

Adiyen

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Namaskaram Swamins

 “one of the list of dos and donts given before undergoing samshrayanam/sarangati is that one should not visit other temples. This is the change I was referring to as why it has happened so”?

One of the reasons might be, as it is said saranagathi for liberation/moksham is possible only unto the lotus feet of Sri Hari and since there should not be any other desire like being an Aishwarya or kaivalya Arthi. Also as kambandasan swami mentioned we as beginners could be tempted at any stage to material desires and if in case, reaching at Devatantras could actually make us deviate from the main path of reaching Moksham. Also, for a saranagatan the things to be kept in mind are ( 1. There is no other Pugal Idam apart from Sri Hari to get saved from this samsaram 2. Ananyargaseshatvam 3 No other desire to pop up apart from him . Jnani ( as liked by krishna).

Adiyen Dasan

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6 on December 3, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Dhanyosmi swamis for further sharing the different view points. Yes, agree that such worship must be pure and in relation to Supreme Lord Krishna, and one should not have material desire.

I have few more points to discuss in this regard.

  1. Humans in earth have always had material desires, even in earlier yugas like when Mahabharatam happened.. so that is why i was wondering how the practice has changed from then to now?
  2. Secondly, when we say we may get affected by material desires when we worship demigods, even then atleast  they may not grant us non-vedic benefits.. but most of us are knowingly or unknowingly worshipping our boss /company where we work by working for 10-14 hours a day beyond what we agreed..but aren’t such practices/ worship  more risky? but thy are not so strictly restricted as compared to devata worship..( same applies to hero worship of celebrities etc..)
  3. Also in the same Mahabharata audio, in the latter part of the discussion between Sri Krishna and Narada  Muni, list of people who must not be respected or worshipped is listed.. Then Swami explained that this list is for us also to apply and not respect such kind of people, so it means that those who were given in the earlier list of who should be worshipped also applies to us.. is it not?
  4. Also whatever teachings are given in Mahabharata is for  common men to apply , so we cannot say that these are not applicable to us.. is it not?
  5. When one is worshipping Supreme Lord Krishna and if by chance/mistake asks for a material boon from a devata, it still needs sanction of Lord Krishna , so what is the worry?

Adiyen

on December 3, 2020

Namaskaram Swami

For 5th, it is a big cause of concern as for a saranagatan it is important to understand, that his swami’s Mukha Malarchi is his ultimate goal and for which he must always try the extra mile or atleast not try to make him doleful. And sure such acts is not going to  make him feel happy. 

Adiyen Dasan

on December 3, 2020

Correct swamy, but this risk lies even when we ask for material wishes directly from the Lord as well..but i can accept your reason for the 5th question..what about the remaining 4 aspects.

on December 4, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha

I’m not qualified but I write here what I heard from other Bhagavathas.

“Humans in earth have always had material desires, even in earlier yugas like when Mahabharatam happened.. so that is why i was wondering how the practice has changed from then to now?”

– True, the desires have always been existed. Even much before Mahabharatha also. I guess when Narada Muni say I worship Devatas, it must be “not” like Devata worship we known. He must have been meant in entirely different way. Also people might have worshipped different Devatas like Indra, Chandra, Vayu etc keeping in mind that Sriman Narayana is master of all including Devathas. It must more on level respecting Bhagavathas then Devata Puja.

In past, people might have worshipped Devathas like Bhagavathas or devotees of Sriman Narayana. We know that all Devathas are Vaishnavas. It has changed now because generally in Kali Yug people are not intelligent and lack everything like Vaishnava guidance, Vaishnava way of life etc so these new prohibition might have come. To discipline the devotees. To help them to focus on Sarnagathi to Sriman Narayana. In past people were very focused and lived a longgg life. In Kali Yug hardly anyone cross 70-75. Focus is reduced to extreme, everywhere distractions from technology. So this prohibition helps more.

Adiyen

on December 4, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha

I’m not qualified but I say what I heard from other Bagavathas.

“Secondly, when we say we may get affected by material desires when we worship demigods, even then atleast they may not grant us non-vedic benefits.. but most of us are knowingly or unknowingly worshipping our boss /company where we work by working for 10-14 hours a day beyond what we agreed..but aren’t such practices/ worship more risky? but thy are not so strictly restricted as compared to devata worship..( same applies to hero worship of celebrities etc..)”

– You pointed it out correctly swamy. Devatas who are Vaishnavas worship is allowed in right attitude in certain occasions. These 21st century boss, celeb etc worship is suicidal of entire Sarnagathi philosophy. This must be given up immediately. I don’t know why it’s not enforced strictly unlike others. I have heard in other Vaishnava Sampradayas, they strictly say – Don’t beg like beggars or work like slaves to Jivatmas (boss). Can’t you trust Sriman Narayana, who is feeding each and every infinite Jivas, from ant to elephants. He maintain all. Can’t he maintain his sarnagathi devotee?

I personally know many devotees who gave up surrendering to other Jivas and did Sarnagathi to Sriman Narayana. For example I know one devotee, who was extremely rich by birth and studied in top engg college. He got 20-30 Lakhs job in campus interview. He even got offer for masters from Carnegie Mellon University, USA with scholarship. He quitted them all. He had lot of opposition from others. He felt these are not leading him to Pure Bhakti or Sanagathi to Sriman Narayana. He now lives in one of Divyadesham and a fully dedicated devotee of Sriman Narayana, he is doing Dharma Prachar about Vaishnava Philosophy. He is leading a beautiful life. I must agree. I know him. He works on part time basis remotely from his ashram. With that money, he is building another Vaishnava Ashram.

I gave this example because, in other Vaishnava Sampradayas like of North India the Sarnagathi is very strictly followed. Not just Devatha but boss, celeb worship is strictly prohibited. They are soley dependent on Sriman Narayana Also I know a Vaishnava Sampradaya, in North India, who never works under others. They mainly do family business. Sometimes Farming or any own enterprise. Never boss. They say being dependent on others like boss etc is suicidal for Sarnagathi to Sriman Narayana

Adiyen

on December 4, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaya Namaha

I am not qualified but I say what I heard from other Bagavathas.

“When one is worshipping Supreme Lord Krishna and if by chance/mistake asks for a material boon from a devata, it still needs sanction of Lord Krishna , so what is the worry?”

I think there is difference between eating food cooked by own mother and eating food by home’s servant. Although the servant works only on sanctions of house owner i.e mother but neither food tastes good as mother and neither the mother love is present in it nor mother is pleased.

I hope this example conveyed the example.

Adiyen

on December 4, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,

Swamy,

Thank you for the detailed answers , most are OK and acceptable. But the last example seems inappropriate.

In the example given the servant does not have any love towards the mother or child..where for pure devotees of the Lord , they do have love towards the Lord and in that regard have care and regard towards us as well. So the example cannot be fully applied in this case.

Adiyen

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Namaskaram Swamins

Secondly, when we say we may get affected by material desires when we worship demigods, even then atleast  they may not grant us non-vedic benefits.. but most of us are knowingly or unknowingly worshipping our boss /company where we work by working for 10-14 hours a day beyond what we agreed..but aren’t such practices/ worship  more risky? but thy are not so strictly restricted as compared to devata worship..( same applies to hero worship of celebrities etc..)

For this, in Srimad Bhagwatam the charitaram of jada baradar could partially be well related . When Raja rahugunan asked for help in lifting the palanquin from baradar, he did what was asked however, in the consciousness of krishna ( Paramatma ) and of self ( Jeev Atma ). Similarly, for a saranagata it is important to do tasks as per following the 3 tayagams stated by krishna in Gita 1. Kartartva Bhudhi Tyagam 2 Mamakara Tyagam 3 Thyanda Phalan Tyagam.

When followed and done a task with such an attitude with 100% for duty sake and not concerned about any tayenda phalan and submitting the tasks outcome unto the lotus feet of krishna then, 1. No attachment would thereby arise 2. No Karma Bhandam thereafter, either with the task or with the individuals involved. And also the money or any other benefit which is earned, can be in terms of material knowledge, could be utilised in sampradayam Vishayam to the extent possible or in Dharma karyams.

Adiyen Dasan

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Namaskaaram Swamis,

I will try to answer this question from the Brahma Samhita perspective. As many of you may know this just for familiarity I’ll quote the first verse of Chapter 5 of Brahma Samhita…

īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ
sac-cid-ānandavigrahaḥ
anādir ādir govindaḥ
sarvakāraṇakāraṇam  

 

“There are many personalities possessing the qualities of Bhagavān, but Kṛṣṇa is the supreme because none can excel Him. He is the Supreme Person, and His body is eternal, full of knowledge and bliss. He is the primeval Lord Govinda and the cause of all causes.”  

 

So, as far as I’ve heard, in Brahma Samhita as the 5th chapter goes on Lord Brahma worships different devas not as the Supreme, but in relation to Sri Krsna. So, for example Lord Brahma has also praised Lord Siva, but only in relation with Sri Krsna, as it is said that Lord Siva is the foremost Vaishnava.  

So, this is how I am planning to worship the devatas, if I happen to go to their temples, i.e., worship them in relation to their position….

 

So, if at all we Vaishnavas, have to observe days like Shivaratri, then we can recite such slokas from the Brahma Samhita.     Sometimes, some acharyas may not accept this. So, it’s fine. But, adiyen only sharing a suggestion…  

 

(P. S.: Hope no one gets disappointed by this…)    

 

adiyen

on December 4, 2020

Namaskaram Swami

Shravan Swami, Adiyen would like to say that anything not liked by acharyas should not be even thought of, even if so, then should restrict by at least not doing it, also it should be understood that Thirumal is Sarva GAndaha, sarva Rasaha etc. His charitrams are the most beautiful and satvic ones. Anything related to him is very dearful, He is like an ocean of blissfulness, at the moment Adiyen think that we are just wet upto the hip and this itself is too soothing but the other half which is dry is in the samsaram wherein there are lot many distractions.  However, we need to avoid it and focus on to dive deep.

Adiyen Dasan

Namaskaaram Ramanuja Dasan Swami,

I am happy to read your reply.

Also, another clarification. Adiyen didn’t mention that we can do certain things even if Acharyas condemn them. No.

My point was, since people in this forum may have different acharyas, and if they, through their acharya’s teaching see my above reply as inappropriate, they can choose not to follow it. This was the meaning of  “Sometimes, some acharyas may not accept this. So, it’s fine.” 

I am sorry as adiyen didn’t use correct words for that sentence…

 

adiyen

on December 4, 2020

Okay Swami

on December 4, 2020

Not an issue

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0 on December 5, 2020

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram Enpanifan and A_Acarya_dasa Bhakta or any Bhaktas with similar doubht,

There is a difference between “Respecting Others” and “Praying Others”. Every SriVaishnava have to respect others if they are either Devatas or humans etc…

One prays Devatas as 1st step to overcome their material suffering, then they get gyanam later that Devatas are not capable of relieving their suffering, since they are also BhaddhAthmas like us trapped in human bodies, those JeevAthmas are trapped in DEVA BODIES but all are equivalent JeevAthmas of same Quality.

Finally they end up with SRIMAN NARAYANA understanding as HE is supreme.

So Sriman NarayanA is the ONLY “SHESHI (MASTER),
All JeevAthmas are SHESHAN (SERVANT) to SHESHI.

So JeevAthmas like VrahmaShiva or us all are Servants and are in BhagavAn’s Body. So “Respecting Others” become important since Each of us are Body of BhagavAn, but Praying other Devatas is not the “JeevAthma Swaroopam”, since we all are Servants To SRIMAN NARAYANA only, since HE only can protect each one of us, like when Shiva JeevAthma did Apacharam to his father due to his ego of seeing his father Brahma having 5 heads, so Shiva plugged one of the head out which is a “Brahma Hatthi Dhosham” and requires severe Prayaschittam which is the reason Shiva is always in Dhyanam meditating Sriman NarayanA. So Srivaishnava Poorvacharyas avoid Praying Devatas though they Respect everyone, since only SRIMAN NARAYANA is “SUDDHA SATVAM”.

All Devatas including Narada Muni is Mishra Tatvam (mixture of Rajas,Tamas, Satva Gunas). Velukkudi Swami has said in one Enpani where SriKrishna and Narada were travelling together to a different Dweepam close to our Jambhu Dweepam, and SriKrishna told Narada to wait outside the Dweepam and not to enter the Dweepam. Narada asked SriKrishna why he cannot enter?. SriKrishna said the humans in this dweepam are very Satvik and soft hearted and devoted to me with Pure Love, so if you do any mischief using your rajasik Guna like “Narada Kalagam”, I will not tolerate. So you please wait here outside till I come back. This is Narada’s status, though he keeps saying “NarayanA NarayanA” most times.

So Devatas though devotees of SriKrishna, they are not pure devotees due to their Mishra Tatvam Gunas. So a Pure devotee only Respects them since they are also on same Body of BhagavAn but doesn’t pray them due to their Mishra Tatvam, and moreover they are not SHESHI (Master), so a Pure devotee (SHESHAN) prays only SHESHI.

This is what SriKrishna says in BG Charama slokam…..as “Maam Ekam Sharanam vraja’…. Ekam means ONLY ONTO ME AND NOT SURRENDER TO OTHERS.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan.

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1 on December 5, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye NAmaha,

Elayalwaar swami, thanks for your long essay. Though you have presented the facts, the approach you have to taken and downgraded Nardhamuni’s status is not acceptable. Just because what Narada Muni said does not fit your thoughts, please do not do this , you had written a nice essay on Bhagavatha apacaharam in the earlier thread few days back. Whatever his absolute status is , he is 1000’s of times superior to both of us, we can not say both Narada and we are parts of Bhagavan and we both are jeevas , so i will just respect him and make fun of his status that he is not pure. Please do not quote Velukkudi swami’s narration of a humorous anectode out of context  to downgrade Narada Muni’s position.

Swami few things to note, if you hear the audio correctly, the discussion  between Krishna and Narada muni is on the topic “whom all are worshipable”? not just respectable. You can hear it again it is enpani audio 201( 5th minute onwards).

Already other Bhagavathas have shared some views and for our current level of practice/maturity that is sufficient, please lets close this thread, I am afraid you might commit more offences to Narada Muni by trying to answer further.

I kindly request the admin to close or delete this thread for the benefit of all.

Adiyen

 

 

on December 5, 2020

Correction : Mahabhaaratam Audio 201 not enpani audio.

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0 on December 5, 2020

Namaskaram.

I listened to Mahabhaaratam Audio 201.

Sri. Velukkudi Krishnan swamy clearly mentioned with reference and quoted Naradha mamuni’s explanation of whom should be worshipped to Lord Krishna. Krishna himself did not negate that. Hence, it is very clear that Lord Krishna has accepted Naradha mamuni’s explanation.

I think this gives a very clear message much more than this thread

“”Respecting others other than Lord Krishna””.

adiyen

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