One of Bhaktas question regarding Brahma Samhita verse 5:45

Updated on November 25, 2017 in Karma
8 on November 23, 2017

Srimatae Ramanuja Namaha,

 

Madhippukkuriya Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

 

Swami,

 

One of Bhakta would like to understand the meaning of the verse 5:45 from Brahma Samhita.

 

kṣīraṁ yathā dadhi vikāra-viśeṣa-yogāt
sañjāyate na hi tataḥ pṛthag asti hetoḥ
yaḥ śambhutām api tathā samupaiti kāryād
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

 

It appears the Bhakta is considering Shiva as 4th Tatvam between ParamAthma Sriman Narayanan and the Chits based on the above 5:45 verse from Brahma Samhita.

 

https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/clarification-about-pitrus-and-pitraloka/

 

Swami, Kindly please clarify Bhakta’s question when Devareer’s time permits.

 

 

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Acharyan Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,

Uyya Oraey Vazhi Udayavar ThiruvAdi,

Sarvam SriKrishnarpanam Asthu.

 

 

 

 

 
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1 on November 24, 2017

Srimatae Ramanujaya Namaha,

Nandri Swami.

Adiyen got it Swami from Devareer’s Enpani #846 “Shastram Murpokku Vaadhama” especially at the end.

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu.

on November 24, 2017

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
🙂 got it

But sometimes we get doubts that’s the whole intention of this dharma Sandeha forum

The bhaktha has accepted Perumal as param porul and any other vicharam is a food for thought.

As a kid it’s easy to make fun of others but adiyen plead forgiveness for bhakthAs who are starters like adiyen for any word which is said wrong or meant weong

With Velukkudi Swamy’s anugraham slowly and gradually each question will get clarified.

Why slowly and gradually?
Lord shiva held Ganga mata on head because earth could not bear the force from heaven..

Same way Perumal will feed us in PaalAadai baby spoon as our head cannot accommodate in full.

Perumal is an ocean of knowledge and we are coconut shell holding it. The bigger the shell gets the more he pours inside.

Ishwarao vAcha:
Sri RAma RAma RAma ithi
ShankarAchArya virachitha NArAyanA sthothram:
NArAyanA NArAyana jaya Govinda hare govinda hare
and
Baja Govindam Mooda mathey
and
Lakshmi Nrushimha mama dehi karAvalambam

Adiyen oru naalooraan, indha naalooraan petra vaazhvu anaivarum pera vendum.

Dasanudasan

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2 on November 24, 2017

Dear Velukkudi Swami

Namaskaram!

I summarize the context of the question.

I was asking about the why we offer to pitrus for long period as they might take birth afterwards soon.  In that answer bhakta explained the birth life death cycles of jivas and in that context made a statement that Lord shiva is also a post like other devatas…I have learnt from authorized sources and acharyas from other vaisnava sampradayas that Lord Shiva is neither jiva nor Bhagawan..so i tried to convey the same to the bhakta and also quoted the Brahma samhita verse..

I also conveyed that the classification of 3 tatvams are for general application and there are exceptions. Example Lord Shiva , Sri Mahalakshmi , they all cannot be classified strictly under any one of the three categories.

In today enpani 846 you had stated that we should not quote shastras out of context. So the bhakta applied this principle to my quoting of shastra and thinks my quote is out of context.

Kindly clarify our misconceptions and help to resolve this .

Perumaal tolerates any misunderstanding about himself but not about his exalted devotees, Lord Shiva known as Sambhu is the most exalted devotee of Lord krishna..ie why Lord has allowed to the extent of people considering Lord Shiva as Bhagawan..it is because of Perumaal’s desire, he want his devotee to be worshiped and glorified.

So it is important to not misunderstand Lord shiva as well.. That is why i took efforts to explain.

I hope Swami will kindly enlighten us with more saastric evidences.

Nandri

regards

 

 

on November 24, 2017

Swami

 

Also I post here the translation that the acharaya had given for this Brahma Samhita verse

Lord Śiva is considered to be like yogurt. Yogurt is nothing but transformed milk; nonetheless, yogurt cannot be accepted as milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva holds almost all the powers of Lord Viṣṇu, and he is also above the qualities of the living entity, but he is not exactly like Viṣṇu, just as yogurt, although transformed milk, is not exactly like milk.

Nandri

on November 25, 2017

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

Apologies in advance for a long answer.

“So it is important to not misunderstand Lord shiva as well.. That is why i took efforts to explain.”

What about brahmA? Why are we not comparing brahmA? Why is he left alone in Shiva-Vishnu duel? The moment we start thinking someone as equal we loose the “MahAvishwAsam” on lord Vishnu which is a basic requirement as a Srivaishnavan.

We can have doubts about the lord of 7 hills till we catch hold of his lotus feets. Not after declaring ourselves as his asset.

It’s not that these questions cannot be answered but there is a required acceptance level, logical conclusion and education standard in vEdAs.

Have we put in such efforts before questioning? Are we GhanapAdis? That was Swami’s point and it was generalized reference not particular to anyone.

What we should infer is “mere Sanskrit words will NOT give us knowledge”

These are to be discussed in vidwad sadas. A classified philosophical debate arena. Just like doctorate discussions in present day education. They write thesis and provide an argument base.

This includes status on Mahalakshmi thAyAyar. Vadakalai and thenkalai will have their own opinion of course.

So the answer need not suit your expectations. So we live with the available interpretations and explanations

If shiva does not serve Vishnu there is no point in calling “Vaishnavaam yathA Shambu”

Qualification of a srivaishnavan?
Adiyarkku,
Adiyarkku
Adiyarkku
Adiyarkku
Adiyarkku
Adiyarkku
Adiyarkku
Adiyen

Adiyen= “Accepted” Serving as Servant

SB 12.13.16 (external reference)

nimna-gānāṁ yathā gaṅgā
 devānām acyuto yathā
vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ
 purāṇānām idam tathā

Next question may arise should I believe authenticity of Srimad bhAgavatham? Who edited it? Is it original? Will Giri traders sell only original scriptures or Internet full of authentic references?

That’s enough for us to loose track.

There is nothing to prove here, lord shiva is indeed a parama bhakthA of Vishnu. This may not appeal to shiva bhakthAs still want to worship Vishnu.

Even while granting ever 16 boon to mArkandeyan it is noted that shiva consulted antharyAmi Sriman NArAyanA. This came in Nrusimha Priya edition. It is up to us to believe.

We may pre-conclude it’s a vaishnavaite magazine and it will be in favour of vishnu. The people who are quoting are scholars who have put 16+years of rigorous vedic education.

So, We will believe it on such legal grounds. “We=Srivaishnavites”.

So lord shiva be whatever it’s not necessary to compare him with Vishnu and get disheartened ain the end.

If we are good enough with open mind everything will come to us with AcharyAl anugraham.

It is up to us to believe the person we trust. Even if there is seemingly more correct answer.

Sahasranamam:
*Swayambu Shambu
*Sarva sharva shiva sthanu:
*Rudro bahushira

So many places you may find references ,
context of each name is different

Please listen to Velukkudi Krishnan Swami’s Sahasranamam explanation

to conclude we can say this line
Sthavya sthavapriya sthothram

He is the one who prays , he is the prayer, he likes to be prayed

So we don’t need to attach levels to any god and dilute Sriman NArAyanA’s supremacy in any possible way.

adiyen,
Dasanudasan

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1 on November 25, 2017

Srimatae Sarva Shastrartha TATVAT’yayai Namaha,

(Sarva Shastrathin Anaithu Arthangalayum Ulladhu Ulladhupadi Arindhu Vaithu Irukkum Swami Ramanujar’ai Vanangukiraen)

 

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,

(Namakku Swami Ramanujarin Arulai Vazhangum Swamiyai Vanangukiraen)

 

 

Dear Bhakta,

 

Now adiyen understood, why Bhakta us focussing more than 3 tatvams when Shastras says only about BASE 3 tatvams Onky.

 

The book that Bhakta is reading about Brahma Samhita uses word  “tattva” at different places which is context sensitive.

Like the SriVaishnava Guru  in that text uses “tattva” for sentences which relates to “energy” or “reality”  or “concept”.

 

Like in other verses if Brahma Samhita , The Guru says,

* Purusha tattva/ Krishna tattva/ Vishnu tattva (Here it means ParamAthma concept).

* Jiva tattva (Here it means Chit concept).

* Manat tattva (Here it means Achit concep).

* achintya bhedha-Abhedha tattva (Here it means concept same as above).

* Svarupa tattva (Here it means reality).

*Acharya tattva (Here it means Chit Pious Athma concept)

* tattva of Anandhadeva ( This is ‘Energy’ of SriKrishna in a Chit “NithyaAthma” concept . Guru says about Adhisheshan which is nine other than Swami Ramanujar avataram in Swami’s upanyasams).

* Shiva tattva ( This is “Energy” of SriKrishna in a Chit “Baddhathma” concept).

 

So the ‘Tattva’ word in many places which is context sensitivity. All are correct.

 

Everything originates from the BASE CORE THREE Tatvams.

 

ENPANI #O7: One ParamaAthma, Countless Chit, Countless Achit.

 

Chit is breakdown into more. So saying tatvams to these subdivisions is also true, but it DOES NOT ADD to the BASE CORE THREE Tatvams based on SHASTRAS/VEDAS.

******************************

 

The meaning of Brahma Samhita 5.45 is Govinda is like ‘Milk’ Distributes HIS ‘Energy’ through an ‘Agent’ (living entity, nothing but a JivaAthma) and transforms in to ‘Yogurt’ the Shiva Post.

 **********************************

That is same as what Adiyen in the other thread answered as below based on Swami’s Upanyasams which is PoorvAcharyars teachings based on Shastras / vedas.

 

Clarification about pitrus and pitraloka


 

*******************************

B) Next about ‘HOW’ Sriman Narayan distributes HIS POWERS to other JeevAthmas

 

Sriman Narayana provides some of HIS Divine Qualities to other JeevAthams as below categories hierarchy in descending order.

 

1) ‘Poorna Avataram‘ is BhagavAn Sriman NARAYAN HIMSELF with “NO DISCHARGE” of powers to other Jeevathmas.

Example: SriRama, SriKrishna, Sri Narasimha, Sri Varaha etc… with ALL SUPREME DIVINE QUALITIES as we saw above in the three tatvams with Primary below 6 Qualities and many more Unlimited Divine Qualities.

 “Gyana (Knowledge), Bhala (Strength), Veera (Valour), Aishwarya (Opulence), Shakthi (Energy), Thejas (Luster)
 

2) Shakthi (Energy) Avataram: A JeevAthma is given 100% of JUST ONE of Bhagavan’s divine quality like SHAKTHI. BhagavAn doesn’t give HIS remaining unlimited Divine Qualities to that Jeevathma.

Exmaple: Parasuram Avatar. Thats why Parasuram being a Jeevathma with only one of the Divine quality ‘Shakthi’ of SriRama had his anger dampened when the Poorna Avatara SriRama faced him.

 

3) Shakthi Aavesha Avatara: Only a PORTION (little bit) of the above Shakthi (Energy) quality is given to a JeevAthma.

Example: KarthiVeeryaArjuna being a ‘Shakthi Aavesha avatara’ was defeated when faced with ‘Shakthi avatara’ Parasuram who inturn was defeated by Poorna Avatara SriRama the SUPREME.

 

So, this is the Hierarchy how BhagavAn Sriman Narayanan DISTRIBUTES HIS divine qualities to other Jeevathmas.

 

Poorna Avataram >>>>>> Shakthi Avataram >>>>>> Shakthi Aavesha Avataram

[BhagavAn HIMSELF > ONE Quality imparted to a JeevAthma) > Portion of ONE quality of BhagavAN imparted to a Jeevathma].

 

 

In the same way, the third category of Shakthi “Energy” Charge (Shakthi Aavesha Avatara) to some JeevAthmas as, Brahma, Rudra etc., the resources required for creation and dissolution are drawn from the Supreme Lord ‘SRIMAN NARAYAN’ Poorana Avataram.

This doesn’t make these JeevaAthma as seperate Tatvam from the Three BASE CORE TATVAMS, since their base nature is Chit ” JeevAthma”.

*****************************

 

Please listen how Swami explains in KANNANIN ARULAMUDGAM CD ( This is about Srimadh Bhagavatam, how Sriman Narayanan creates the Leela Vibhoothi and assings a Jiva for Brahma post, then another Jiva chosen for Brahma’s son Shiva post. After Maha Pralayam, How Sriman Narayanan dissolves all posts including the World’s Brahma lokam, Shiva lokam etc…

Swami says in detail in this CD about THREE Tatvams and us more breakdown subdivisions.

 *********************************

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam,

Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,

Thayar-Perumal-Alwar-Emperumanaar-Jeeyar-Acharyar Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Ranu Chod Rai SriKrishna BhagavAn ki Jai,

Sarvam SriKrishna Kudumbham.

on November 25, 2017

Dear  Bhakta

Thanks for the clarifications. yes it could be that the context of the word tatva is used is different.

So if we have only 3 base tatvams, Mahalakshmi is classified under which base tatvam?

Yes i have also read in Bhagavatam that Lord Shiva is born through the nostrils of Lord Brahma. But in other places it is stated that Lord Shiva is eternally the same person, when Shiva Loka is dissolved during Prlayam, Lord Shiva merges with Sadashiva, who is believed to be one of the incarnations of Mahavishnu. Then when the new creation begins the same Lord Shiva takes charge, unlike brahma where any jiva can get this position by sufficient pious credit and by attracting Lord’s mercy. Rudras may be a post but not Lord Shiva.

But i understand , based on what you have heard , you have made sufficient efforts to convey the truth that you have understood based on what you have heard from acharyas. 

Similarly i am also trying to state what i have heard from authoritative sources.

I think we should carry on our devotional service.. and Lord will reveal to us at a suitable time.

It is possible that both of us are correct but from different perspectives.

Than you for your enthusiasm and efforts ,also sorry for unnecessary confusion i might have created.

reagrds

 

 

 

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0 on November 25, 2017

Srimatae Ramanujaya Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,

Dear Bhakta,

Honestly, adiyen don’t understand about the informations that Bhakta is sharing.

Adiyen previously said that adiyen is sharing Swami’s Pravachanams. So adiyen is not focussing if adiyen is correct or wrong, adiyen is rather regurgitating Swami’s Pravachanams without keeping any personal interests attached on Swami’s Pravachanams/answers like other Bhaktas.

Swami’s below CD’S will clear Bhakta’s doubhts. Please Keep continuing Bhaktas good effort of SHRAVANAM with Acharya Krupai/ Swami’s Anugraham.

*Sri Bashyam.
*Sri VishishtaAdvaitam.
*Rahasya Trayam (Tatva Trayam).
* Kannapiran Kadhaiamudham (Srimad Bhagavatam).

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Yellarudaya Manadhayum Aandananaey,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu,
Sarvam SriKrishna Kudumbham.

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