Clarification about pitrus and pitraloka

Updated on December 24, 2019 in Karma
23 on September 23, 2017

Dear Sir,

Thank you for the innumerable number of useful speeches that you have been giving to the society at large.

Doing this at this point of Kaliyuga requires lot of energy and determination and blessings from the Supreme Lord.

I have a doubt regarding today’s Enpani audio dated September 10 2017.

Who reaches Pitru loka and why? Aren’t our ancestors supposed to have reached vaikuntam already?

If not atleast they would have taken another birth, why woudl they remain in pitr loka?

If all departed souls pitrloka wouldn’t it be over populated?

On a side note I have heard that doing charity and feeding cows is very beneficial if done on Amavasya, but I hear some people saying that these acts of charity on Amavasya should be done only by those whose parents don’t exist anymore others should not do. Is it true?

Kindly clarify these doubts?



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1 on September 19, 2017

I am not sure if this question is successfully posted.kindly acknowledge.

on September 23, 2017

Yes the question is visible swami

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Sri Ramanuja Muneya Namaha,


Dear Baktha,


Based on Sri Velukkudi Krishna Swami’s Upnayasams/Enpani audios,



The JeevAthma’s ‘Karmas & its DESIRE (Viruppam)’ decides which lokam that JeevAthma needs to reach.




<Who have Desire to Reach SriVaikuntam…..No more Re-birth in Samsaram>


Only those JeevAtham’s who has used its Jeeva Swathantriyam and did Sharanagathi on BhagavAn Sriman Narayanan Lotus feet during its birth goes to Moksha ‘SriVaikuntam’ (Place of Suddha Satvam/Permanent happiness) which is beyond Samsaram (Place full of Rajas/Tamas/Pain). This is called as Liberation from “Karma-Janma-Karma” and doesn’t take anymore Re-brith in Samsaram again.


So, the ENTIRE “Sanchita Karmas & Prarabtha Karmas which is a combination of Paapa/Punya Karmas” needs to be ZERO to reach Moksha ‘SriVaikuntam’, which only BhagavAN SriKrishan ONLY can do and cannot be achived by any of our efforts.



<Who DON’T have Desire to Reach SriVaikuntam…..Take Re-birth in Samsaram like current birth or better or worse>


A JeevAthma during its life in Boolokam, if decides to take up another birth in Samsaram (Painful Place) based its Punya/Paapa karma without doing Sharanagathi for Moksham, then it takes up bodies in different lokas either in Pitru loka or Chandra loka, or Naga loka or Indra loka or Shiva loka or Brahma loka etc…. Those ‘Jeevathmas also have to come back to Boolokam and take up a Human body once their punya/paapa karma is relinguished/exhausted in those lokas, including the leader of those lokas like Brahma, Shiva, Indra etc…


[We oursleves are the best examples. We were alsoa Pitru in some Janma and We took birth in this Janma, since we didnot do Sharanagathi in the previous Janma. So now, we are aware and we do ‘Sharanagathi’ on BhagavAN Sriman Narayanan Lotus Feet through a Parathantran Acharyan (Pancha Samsakaram), so BhagavAn HIMSELF be the UPAYAM (Route) & UPEYAM (Destination) for us.]


* Depending up on its Punya karma that was ‘acquired in Boolokam life’ (example one bag of punya karma was acquired during that particular Booloka birth), then the JeevAthma goes to Indra loka or other lokas to ‘Relinguish/exhaust that particular bag of Punya karma that it acquired in its Booloka birth’, And once that bag of punya karma is finished/exhausted, then the JeevAthma is thrown back on clouds and takes up another body, it could be in any loka. So JeevAthams in any loka doesn’t stay their for long, let it be Pitru lokam or Indra lokam or Brahma lokam or Shiva lokam etc.. Same situation for Demi-gods.


* Depending up on its Paapa karma (one bag acquired during its Booloka life), it goes to Naraka loka, and once that bag of paapa karma is finished/exhausted, then the JeevAthma is thrown back on to the clouds and takes up another body, it could be in any loka, or may be without getting any body, the Athma will be wandering till it gets a a body.


But this is about the one bag of karmas acquired in that particular Boolokam birth, but the “Unlimited Paapa/Punya karma Bag (Sanchita karmas)” is not yet ERASED until Sriman Narayanan gives Moksham. Till that happens, the JeevAthma keeps taking “Punarabhi Jananam (Born Again), Punarabhi Maranam (Death again), Punarabhi Jananii Jatare Shayanam (take birth again in Mothers womb)……


Please listen to Sri Velukkudi Swami’s past Enpani #131 “Jiva Departs And Goes Where All” which will provide clarity on Baktha’s question.



The Shraddham/Tarpanam (Enpani # 122 “Why Tarpanam or Shraddham) is for ‘OUR Benefit ONLY” and not for the Pitrus benefits, Since when we do anything based on Shastras with Shraddhai (dedication), then BhagavAN Sriman Narayana gets pleased (Anukoolasya Sankalpam, ‘Do what HE likes’) and then HE blesses us, and if HE decides, then HE can give Moksham same birth.

Tarpanam & Shraddham is actually a minuscule activity compared to doing Sharanagathi on Acharyan Lotus Feet.



Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,

Adiyen Acharya Dasan,

Adiyen Ramanuja Dasan,


Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,


Chella Pillai Yathiraja SampathKumar SriKrishna BhagavAN ki Jai.

Sarvam Sri Krishna Kudumbham.


on October 12, 2017

Thanks for the detailed and long explanation.

I understand and agree fully except for the two things .

  1. You have clubbed Lord Shiva along with Brahma and devas that they will have to take birth in bhooloka when their punya karma is exhausted. I would like to indicate that Lord Shiva’s position is not  like a post unlike devas and demigods and he is also not a jivatma, He is in-between Jiva and Bhagawan and is very difficult to understand, but he cannot be classified as ordinary jiva along with demi-gods.

       2.  The last part  of how these activities are beneficial for us, perhaps I will have to hear the two old enpani audios 122 and 131 that you have referred. I will hear them and if still have a query then will post it.

Where do I access the old enpani audios? I searched in kinchitkaram website but could not locate.

Thanks for the time and effort spent.


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1 on October 14, 2017

Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,

Sri Dasarathiye Namaha,

Srimadh Vara Vara Muneya Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,


Dear ALL Baktha’s,


Here are the references from PRAMAANAM (True Source of Spiritual Knowledge from SHASTRAS/Vedas/Ithihasa…..), which is nothing but Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami’s Pravachanams based on “Oran Vazhi Guru Paramparai” teachings transcendental from GeethAcharyan BhagavAn SriKrishna through JagadhAcharyan Swami Ramanujar to present Asmadh Acharyas delivered to us via Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami’s Anugraham.



Swami has mentioned briefly about the Fundamentals of ‘Sanatana Dharmam’ from SHASTRAS in short EnpAni clips as below.

For detailed explanations with reference to the “Shastara Vaakyams in Sanskrit”, please refer to Swami’s lengthier Upnayasams/Discourses.

Here are the Short references (Pramaanam) from Swami’s Enpani audio clips.



A) The Three Tatvaas based on Shastram Enpani #07:

Tatvam’ is sub-divided in to Three as below:

Achit, Chit, ParamAthma.


1) Achit

* Means Jada Porul, “Arivattra (No Gyanam) & Azhiyakoodiya Porul (Perishable”)


* Countless in Qty’s (Insentient objects like our body and other materialistic things etc..)

* Achit is Anaadhi (means it existed for undefined time)

* Sotthu (Property of ParamAthma)



2) Chit

* Means Chaytanyam “JeevAthma”, “Arivulladhu (Only Gyanam) & Azhivu illadhadhu (Non-Perishable”


* Countless Qty’s (all of us ‘Sentient’).

* Chit is also Anaadhi (means it existed for undefined time)

* Sotthu/Adimai (Property/Servant of ParamAthma)



3) ParamAthma

* Means Anantha KODI KALYANA GUNANGAL Udayavar (One WHO has Unlimited DIVINE Qualities).


* Gyana, Bhala, Veera, Aishwary, Shakthi, Thejas are primary 6 qualities of BhaghavAn.

* Plus Sowlabhyam, Sowsheelyam, Swamithvam, Parathvam, etc… Countless Divine SUPREME Qualities.

* ONE & ONLY ONE ‘ParamAthma (NO Second ONE)’ which is nothing but the BhagavAn SRIMAN NARAYANAN who is the OWNER of both countless Chit & countless Achit. Chit & Achit is Thirumeni (Body) for ‘ParamAthma’ Sriman Narayanan

* ParamAthma is also Anaadhi (existed for undefined time).

* Why ParamAThma is ONLY “nArAyAnA” and not applicable to others as explained by ‘Paanini Maharishi (Father of Linguistics)’ in Paanini Soothram, which is the nothing but the BASE GRAMMER for ALL Sanskrit words. All Vedas/Shastras/Upanishads in Sanskrit are written based on Paanini Soothram.


By Paanini Soothram, grammer for sanskrit, there are two classifications:

a) Roodi Artham means “Etimology” (breakdown of each sanskrit words combined together should have a meaning),

b) Yowgika Artham means “Popular Usage” ( Popular usage meaning of the word in routine life)



a) Etimology meaning (Roodi Artham):

NA RA YA NA நா ரா ய ண” split in to two

“NARA” Kootal “AYANAM” –> நார + அயனம் == நாராயண.

‘NARA (நார)‘ means Narangal (நாரர்கள்), means all JeevAthmas, Sentient.

‘AYANAM (அயனம்)‘ means where the Narargal (நாரர்கள்) reside.

‘kootal’ in tamil means ‘+’ addtion.

So, when NARA (நார) and AYANAM (அயனம்) is combined then,

+ = ரா, so ‘நாரா

and the ‘moonu suzhi ‘NA ()’ instead of oru suzhi ‘NA () is added as per grammer.

and hence, நார + அயனம் = நாராயண. ‘NARAYANA, which means means “the resort or place where the ‘Narargal ‘All Jeevas’ (நார)‘ Reside (அயனம்) ‘” is ‘NARAYANA (நாராயண)‘.



b) Popular Usage meaning (Yowgika Artham):

In popluar usage, when soemone says BhagavAN Narayana, it is immediately understood, that BhagavAn Sriman Narayananan is teh one we are talking about.

So, by ‘Etimology’ it is understood all JeevaAthmas reside on Narayana and by ‘Usage’ it is understood that Narayana word is used to call BhagavAn Narayana, Perumal, SriKrishna, SriRama etc…

These can be understood, only if the actual Sanskrit word of NARAYANA is written and explained. As of now, adiyen is only Tranliteratiing the Sanskrit explantion to English explanation from Swami’s upanyasams. So please listen to Swami’s explantions for clarity in the upanyasams.



Case study of ‘Etimology & Usage’ meanings:



We can consider a person having a name Narayana. But the ‘popular usage’ refers to BhagavAn Narayan as well as by definition ‘Etimology’ meaning also refers to BhagavAn Narayana. So, we know though a person has a name Narayan, he is not actually BhagavAn Narayan becasue both Etimilogy & Usage doesn’t fit for that person. So the person is NOT ParamAthma.



Same way, if we pick any person having any other name other than ‘Narayana’. Say one perosn has name ‘Shiva’, then the Usage meaning refers to Brahma’s son Shiva as per Sanatana Dharma texts/scriptures. So, though a person has name Shiva, doesn’t mean, he is Shiva as per ‘Usage’, rather the actual usage refers to the Brahma’s son Shiva.


Then, by Etimology, the breakdown meaning of each word ‘Shiva’ doesn’t mean all Narargal reside on him as per Paanini Sootram. So Shiva is NOT ParamAthma category. So Shiva should be in either Chit or Achit catergory. We know that, Shiva cannot be Achit caterogory as Achit is Jada porul. So, Shiva falls in Chit category means ‘JeevAthma category.


So, the Etimology (Roodi Artham) & Usage (Yowgikia Artham) can be applied for any names within Sanatana Dharmam or for any names outside Sanatana Dharmam, and we can filter easily who is ParamAthma THE SUPREME and why only NARAYANA is called as ParamAthma as per Vedas/Shastras.


Overall we know, what are the UNLIMITED DIVINE QUALITIES of ParamAthma under A3) section,

Then, Who is ParamAthma as per Paanini Sootram explanation of the word NARAYANA.

So, in ParamAthma category, there is ONE-and-ONLY ONE, which is the BhagavAn Sriman NARAYAN (no SECOND one).




B) Next about ‘HOW’ Sriman Narayan distributes HIS POWERS to other JeevAthmas


Sriman Narayana provides some of HIS Divine Qualities to other JeevAthams as below categories hierarchy in descending order.


1) Poorna Avataram is BhagavAn Sriman NARAYAN HIMSELF with “NO DISCHARGE” of powers to other Jeevathmas.

Example: SriRama, SriKrishna, Sri Narasimha, Sri Varaha etc… with ALL SUPREME DIVINE QUALITIES as we saw above in the three tatvams as

‘Gyana, Bhala, Veera, Aishwary, Shakthi, Thejas’.


2) Shakthi Avataram: A JeevAthma is given 100% of JUST ONE of Bhagavan’s divine quality like SHAKTHI. BhagavAn doesn’t give HIS remaining unlimited Divine Qualities to that Jeevathma.

Exmaple: Parasuram Avatar. Thats why Parasuram being a Jeevathma with only one of the Divine quality ‘Shakthi’ of SriRama had his anger dampened when the Poorna Avatara SriRama faced him.


3) Shakthi Aavesha Avatara: Only a PORTION (little bit) of the above Shakthi quality is given to a JeevAthma.

Example: KarthiVeeryaArjuna being a ‘Shakthi Aavesha avatara’ was defeated when faced with ‘Shakthi avatara’ Parasuram who inturn was defeated by Poorna Avatara SriRama the SUPREME.


So, this is the Hierarchy how BhagavAn Sriman Narayanan DISTRIBUTES HIS divine qualities to other Jeevathmas.

Poorna Avataram >>>>>> Shakthi Avataram >>>>>> Shakthi Aavesha Avataram

[BhagavAn HIMSELF > ONE Quality imparted to a JeevAthma) > Portion of ONE quality of BhagavAN imparted to a Jeevathma].


In the same way, the third category of Energy Charge (Shakthi Aavesha Avatara) to some JeevAthmas as, Brahma, Rudra etc., the resources required for creation and dissolution are drawn from the Supreme Lord ‘SRIMAN NARAYAN’ Poorana Avataram.



C) Next about ‘4 types of Pralaya’ Enpani #87


1) Nitya Pralayam –> Individual JeevAthma Birth -Death in Samsaram and take Rebirth again and again.


2) Naimithika Pralayam –> Individual JeevAthma’s last Death. Reach Moksham and no more re-birth. Permanent Escape from Samsaram.


3) Aathyanthika Pralayam –> After Brahma’s 12hrs (1000 Chatur Yuga) completion, three of the lokams are dissolved (Boo, Bhuvaha, Suvaha lokams). Still other lokamns in this Painful samasaram exists.


4) Praakritha Pralayam (Maha Pralayam) –> After Brahma’s 100 years, all the 14 lokams which constitues One Andam including Brahma lokam is disssolved. Samsaram still exists, but Shristis is not started and JeevAthmas who didnot go to Moksham wait for a body till BhagavAn starts Shristi.


Again once BhagavAn starts Shristi,

“Narayanan padaitthaan NaanMughanai (Brahma), NaanMughanukku Yeraar Shivan Piranthaan Yendrum Sol”

[ This is the “Naan Mughan Thiruvandhaadhi Divya Prabhandham Thaniyan” which is originally taken from Srimad Bhagavatham, how Perumal starts Shristi and choses a JeevAthma for Brahma post and then that Brahma choses another JeevAthma for Shiva post and creation continues).




So now:


1*) we know that, there is only Three Tatvams, Chit, Achit, ParamAthma as per as per section A3). [so no 4th tavam in-between Bahagavn & JeevAthama].


2*) we know that, ParamAthma’s Unlimited Divine Qualities and why that ParamAthma is Sriman Narayana as per section A3) a) & b). [so NO Second ParamAthma].


3*) we know that, How Sriman Narayan distributes HIS powers to other JeevAthams like Parasuam, KarthiVeeryaArjuna, Brahma, Rudra (Shiva) etc…. as per section B).


4*) we know that, Based on 4 types of Pralayam as per section C) , the highest Brahma post is dissolved when PERUMAL does MAHA PRALAYAM, (either the JeevAthma that took the Brahma post reaches SriVaikunta by Sriman Narayan Krupa (grace) or takes up another body in Samsaram. So when Brahma the highest post ‘Sathya lokam’ itself is disssoved, then the lower post (Brahmas son Shiva post) and any other demi-gods loakms/posts are also disssolved and the JeevAthma that took each of the posts Shiva post or other demi-god posts also has to take another body after Perumal starts Shristi starts or would have reached SriVainkuntam by Sriman Narayan Krupa (Grace). Same situation of all JeevAthmas in ordinary bodies like us as well.


[Refer to Swami’s Tatva Trayam CD, Srimad Bhagavatam CD, Vishnu Puram CD for clear details ]



Hence, lets keep our Agyana-Vaasanai (own ignorant thinking) aside, unless we can refer the 4th tavam from Pramaanam (Shastras). If not, lets refrain from such fluid informations which confuses ourselves and others. Lets continue to follow the Shastras by doing MORE shravanam on Swami’s Upanyasams.


Kinchit Volunteers are uploading all the Enpani audios in the website under ‘Tutorial’ tab in a timely fashion. Swami has said, these are only brief audios, but refer to Books/Upanyasams for more details.



So, being in the post (deva body) or taking up a human body is not important, since all these are STILL SAMSARAM (not Sri Vaikuntam). Like, how we humans have difficulties, the devas like Brahma, Shiva, Indra have difficulties as well. That’s why, they go to “ThiruPaar Kadal and meet BhagavAn VYUHA Vasudeva Perumal and fall on HIS feet to ‘help them’ when ASURAS/Raakshashas bring trouble for them or attack their lokams. All these lokams inside SAMSARAM are Terrible/Painful places to experience, unless we reach SriVaikuntam with BhagavAn/Acharya Grace/Krupai.


Understanding that a JeevAtham got a body, either Demi-god body or ordinary Human body in any Andam, the purpose of life is “PIRAVIYIN PAYAN PIRAVAAMAI (means, The purpose of this birth is NOT to take RE-BIRTH in the Samsaram PAINFUL Place).




Sri Lakshmi Thayar Purushakaaratthal, Thayar’udaya Kanavar (Husband) Bhagavan Sriman Narayanan’uadaya ARULAI pettra Acharyar Thiruvadi’galilaey “Athma’vai samarpanam” seidhu, avarudaya KARUNAI’yaalaey Moksham yengira “YAMMA VEEDU or PERU VEEDU or Sri Vaikuntam” pettru “Nithya Kainkarythilaey” eedu paduvoamaaga.



Agyanatthil Moozhgi Irukkum nammalidam, yendha Gyanamum yedhir paarkaamal, thannudaya NIRHEDHUKAI KRUPAI’yalaey Mokshatthai” namakku Arulum Swami Ramanujar ThiruvAdi’yai Pattruvoam.


Andha Swami Ramanujarin Arulai namakku Pettru kuduttha Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami’ ThiruvAdi’yai Pattrivoam.



Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,

Adiyen Acharya Dasan,

Adiyen Ramanuaja Dasan,

Adiyen Alwar Dasan,


Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,


Ranu Chod Rai SriKrishna Bhagavan ki Jai.

Ulagam Unda PeruvaayAn SriKrishna BhagavAn ki Jai.

Rukmini Thayar Samedha Sri Krishna Bhagavan ki Jai.


on November 21, 2017

Thank you for your effort and time in explaining in detail.

I could not reply earlier.. both because of lack of time and as well as because it is a sensitive issue.

There are vedic proofs in Brahmasamhita about explanation of Lord Shiva’s position as non-jiva. But i am not sure if you will accept them.

Also initially in school children are taught only integers, then + and  -ve integers, then later decimal, later irrational numbers, finally complex numbers. So when we don’t learn complex number we will try to classify all numbers as either 0(inert), integers(jivas) or infinity (Perumaal) only. But in reality there are complex numbers. I think this example is suitable in our discussion as the issue we are discussing is complex.

 We should not end up committing offenses to each other and to Lord Shiva and to Lord Perumaal, As Swami also told in one enpani to focus on basics and then we will realize these complex things as it will be revealed to us later.

So i think we may not be required to discuss this topic further.

Thanks and request forgivance if have hurt your sentiments.


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0 on November 21, 2017

I was very happy to hear the answer form Swami today in vidura neethi dated 769 20-Nov-2017.

He had explained that Pitrus even after they take rebirth, others in pitru loka accept the offerings and process it to acceptable form and send to the actual pitrus.

Thank you Swami for the explanation.

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2 on November 21, 2017

To cut it short Swami has told, even if some attained moksha, it (shrAddham/Aparna kArya) will benefit others who are yet to reform.

One thing about Perumal Bhakthi he doesn’t like him to be shared. He wants us to be eka pathi vrathan (our one & only husband). Any other devathAs please excuse.

The statements like “I love Perumal also” is not like by him. Krishna in Bhagavath Gita says “Hey Arjun – Vasudeva Sarvam ithi mahAthmA su dhurlabha:”

meaning “I am trying to find a mahAthma who sees vAsudEvA as everything but it’s hard to find”

When adiyen say Vasudevan is everything I cannot bring anyone else into account.

That’s the point of whole Srivaishnavism. We cannot mix things here.


on November 21, 2017

Edit :
Auto correct issue
Aparna kAryam to be read as Apara KAryam.

In vEdA even Indra, varuNa etc given supreme status. It means the antharyAmi is Sriman NArAyanan.

He is the inner soul to even lord shiva.

Sriman NArAyana is Brahma, Shiva, Indra or varuna. The reverse is not true.

Adiyen accept periyAzhwar then adiyen must also accept azhwar has proved the supremacy of Sriman NArAyanAin front of Shiva bhakthAs.

Srivaishnvas don’t hurt any sentiments of other devathAs. As he vishnu resides in all.

We don’t equate him with anyone else.

Thirumazhisai Azhwar is a special example. Look at these versus of pasuram:

“sAkkiyam katrOm, SamaNam katrOm, SankaranAr aakkiya Aagamanool
aarAindhOM; BhaggiyathAl venkaTkariyAnai SerndOm”
meaning –
” We learned SAkkiyam (jainism) SamaNam (Buddhism) and did deep research into the doctrine of Saivam; which were all totally
misleading. Luckily, we landed at the feet of TiruvengadathAN as a SrIvaishNavan”


on November 22, 2017

Dear sir
Both kongilpiratti bhatka and myself accept that Lord Krishna is supreme and source of all.
The point we are debating is if vedas classify Lord shiva as jiva tattva or separately as Shiva tattva.
Sorry for the confusion.

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1 on November 22, 2017


Srimatae Ramanujaya Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,


Dear enpanifan Bhakta,


An offense is committed only when we let our own thinking flow “WITHOUT REFERENCES” from Shastras/Vedas which is nothing but GeethAcharyan teachings via PoorvAchryars delivered to us via Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Pravachanams.


Swami has said, Shastars/Vedas are nothing but BhagavAN Sriman Naryanan’s ThiruUllam. What HE decides as Sankalpam, HE writes down in Shastras/Vedas.


Adiyen has ONLY SHARED/REGURGITATED Swami’s Enpani audios and Upanyasam CD references in the above thread for each item. So, if Bhakta is not satisfied with the references or couldnot understand the references, then it means, Bhakta needs further clarification from Swami’s Pravachanams.


If adiyen or other Bhaktas find more references from Swami’s Pravachanams, then we will definitely SHARE again for Bhaktas clarity.


Learned Scholars (Vedhathikal like Swami) & PoorvAcharyars have explained/established the “the essence of Shastras/Vedas” as who is “ParamAthma or ParaBrahmam or ParaDevatha” which is Sriman Narayanan and existence of Countless JeevaAthmas (Chit) and Countless Jada Porul (Achit).




Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami in Upanyasam says Vedas are split in to TWO called as:


* PoorvA Bhaagam (1st part) called as “Vedham”.

* UttharA Bhaagam (2nd part) called as “Upanishads/Vedhantam”.




1) “Poorva Bhaagam” in Vedas tell primarily about Karma-Anushtanams, but DOESN’T tell who is ParaBrahmam/ParaDevatha/ParamAthma. It only tells, if we do this particular yaagam/yagjyam, then the particular Phalam is given by that Devatha. So, many people do that Karma-Anushtanams and follow each Devatha, sicne PoorvA-Bhaagam of Vedas doesn’t talk about PARA DEVATHA (yella Devathaikkum mein pattavar yaar, who is the ultimate leader for all Devathas).


Hence, Many small Sampradayam/Mathams exists due to those GURU’S/Matha Thalaivargal limit their knowledge by just reading/following only Poorva-Bhaagam of Vedas and doen’t go beyond to learn teh Uttara-Bhaagam of Vedas. Hence, they live in confused state and their followers as well, as to who is actual BhagavAn/ParamAthma/ParaBrahmam/ParaDevatha as per Vedas.




2) “Uttara Bhaagam” in Vedas is called “Upanishads/Vedhantam” which explains in detail meaning the ESSENCE OF VEDAS/SHASTRAS which is nothing but “BhagavAn Sriman Narayanan” as ParamAthma/ParaBrahmam/ParaDevatha and all other Jeevathmas (either in human body or Deva body like Brahma, Shiva, Indra etc) , all are SHESHAN (Absolute Servitude) to BhagavAn Sriman Narayanan.




PoorvAcharyas provide an example for the Poorva-Bhaagam & Uttara-Bhaagam of Vedas as below.

1) Poorva-Bhaagam of Vedas –> A Bride searching for one Bride-groom. Basically the parents looking many male photos before the women choses one Bride-groom. Which means, a JeevAthma not sure who is ParaBrahmam (final Bride-groom) as per Shastras/Vedas, so goes and prays all Devathas Brahma, Shiva etc.. including the ParaBrahmam Sriman Narayanan.


This state is “future SiVaishavaite” situation.


2) Uttara Bhaagam of Vedas –> A Bride finally filters and decides/understands her One-and-Only bride groom and get married to HIM and Trashes the remaining photos, since it in not necessary to keep the other male photos while the bride was deciding whom to get legally married as a Pathi-Vratha Shtree” (as Vikram Bhakta has said with refernce to Swami’s Pravachanams).


This state is “SriVaishavaite” lakshanam.


So, is it fair?, if a “future SriVaishnavaite” tell a “SriVaishnaviate” to pray other Devathas. We are wise and we don’t do that in our Materitistic Husband-Wife relationship, then how come, some talk very Easily the Spiritual Husband-Wife relationship. So, we can refrain from loose talks and Enlighten them more based on EXACTS (Swami’s Pravachanams).


Everyone have to cross the SriVaishnava state to reach Moksham with Sriman Narayanan Krupai. Everyone is eligible to become a Srivaishnavaite following their own Varna/Kula Dharmam.



  1. Markandeyar MahaRishi was devotee of Devatha Shiva. He got all boons from Shiva. One time, Markendeyar had Iccha (Desire) to reach Moksham ‘SriVaikuntam’. At that time, He aksed Shiva to give him Moksham ‘SriVaikunam’. Shiva said, “I HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN THAT RIGHTS TO GIVE MOKSHAM. ONLY JANARDHANAN (Sri Keshavan/Sri Krishna) can give that. So, Markendeyar uplifted himself from “future Sivaishavaite” status to “Sri Vaishavaite” status.
  2. Ganda karanan is a man-eater who keeps a bell on his ears when some say Narayana, then he keeps ringing it, so he don’t hear Narayana Naamam, but biggest devotee of Devatha Shiva. He had one time, Desire for Moksham. He asked Shiva for Moksham. Shiva repeated the same answer as he said to Markendeyar and said to him to ask SriKrishna directly. Ganda Karanan got Moksham with Sri Krishans grace “Pina Virundhu Ittaeno Ganda Karananai polaey”


Now, Veda Kudhrsiti’s (means who intreprets and explains meaning of Vedas incorrectly) can say, why don’t you chose Shiva or Brahms or Indra as the final bridegroom and trash remaining photos. For that, PorovAcharyas have already explaned that, a JeevAthma is Adimai (Servant) to ParamAthma/PURUSHOTHAMAN Sriman Narayanan who has the primary 6 Qualities like


“Gyana (Knowledge), Bhala (Strength), Veera (Valour), Aishwarya (Opulence), Shakthi (Energy), Thejas (Luster) and


many more Infirnite DIvine Qulaities (Kalyana Gunangal) like Paratvam, Sowlabhyam, Sowsheelyam, Swamitvam etc..etc…etc…. which NO other JeevAthma in Human body or Deva body like Brahma, Shiva etc…. possess. They only get A portion of BhagavAn’s Divine Qulaities based on BhagvAn Sriman Narayanan’s discretion to sustain their Shiva Post or BRahms Post other Devatha posts.




So when JeevAthmas in ordinary human bodies like us are well aware of our own position as “SHESHAN (Servant) to Sriman Narayanan, then we cannot under-estimate the JeevaAthmas in Higher level human bodies like Brahma, Shiva who are well VERSED with Shastras/Vedas DON’t realize that they are also Sheshan (Servant) to ParaBrahmam/ParamAthama/ParaDevatha ‘Sriman Narayanan’.


So we cannot ‘Offend’ other Jeevathmas like Shiva Devatha or Brahma Devatha by telling them equal to Sriman Narayanan, when they themselves realize as Sheshan (Servant) to Sriman Narayanan.




* Veda Vyasar has written Essence of Vedas based on the Uttara Bhaagam of Vedas as Who is ParamAthma and position of other Jeevathmas in grantham “Brahma Sootram”,

* Bhodhayanar has written briefing of above Brahma Sootram as “Vritthi Grantham”.

* Swami Ramanujar has given explanition of Brahmam Sootram and Bhodhayana Vritthi Grantham in “Sri Bashyam”.




When we Bhaktas try to listen Swami’s Enpani or Upanyasams, then we try to listen with OPEN MIND and NOT with PRECONCEIVED MIND.


When we try to listen with Preconceived mind, it means we are attaching our own interests (Karma Vaasanai) to PoorvAcharyars/Swami’s answer, then we will not understand anything, since Shastras/Vedas as explained by PoorvAcharyars is called THE PRAMAANAM ( Original source of Spiritual Knowledge transcedental from GeethAcharyan SriKrishna as the 1st Acharyan and transferred via Alwars/Acharyas to us).


When we listen with OPEN MIND, then the actual meaning of Shastras/Vedas will get into our mind with Acharya Krupai/Swami’s Anugraham.


Adiyen try to listen below Swami’s Pravachanams, same as mentioned in the above threads with Open Mind (without attaching our own Preconceived mind) for better understanding.

* Enpani #07, Three Tatvams (no 4th Tatvam).

* Enpani #87, 4 types is Pralaya (all lokams dissolved by Sriman Narayanan).

* Tatvam Trayam Upanyasam.

* Srimad Bhagavatam Upanyasam.

* Vishnu Puranam Upanyasam.

* Sri Bashyam Upanyasam.




Swami has said to follow the BASICS of Sanatana Dharmam in past 10 years which Swami has iterated recently as:


* Enpani #842 ‘Stand up for Principles of ….” for Thani Manitha Ozhukkam, Panbhu, Panivu, and

* Enpani #841 “Santhoshamum Thruptiyum” to SHARE our Gyanan Selvam that we learned from Preceptors and also has said in

* Enpani #840 “Ignore loose Talks” to avoid any conversations if others are not in a receiving mode.

So, we have to combine all the three ENpani audios Purpose and make best judgemnt to deal with situations.


So Any Bhaktha is only a Karuvi (Tool) to SHARE/RECIPROCATE/REGURGITATE PoorvAcharyars teachings. We don’t need to invent any new Wheel, as those have been already explained/ established by PoorvAcharyars like Swami Ramanujar; Swami Pillai LokaCharyar, Swami Vedhanta Desikan, Swami ManavAla MaAmunigal, Swami DhoddayAcharyar at different times about the EXISTANCE of ONLY THREE Tatvams as “Chit’s, Achit’s, One ParamaAthma” and NO 4th TATVAM as per SHASTRAS/VEDAS.


Since, Bhaktha is WELL doing SHRAVANAM on Swami’s Pravachanams, at some time with BhagavAt Anugraham / Acharya Krupai / Sri Velukkudi Swami’s Kataksham, Bhaktas doubhts will defenitely be cleared to Undersatnd about the 3 tatvams, like we all are crossing the same path as Bhakta’s current situation.



Namakku Gyanathayum-Anugrahatthayum Vazhangum Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam,


Thayar-Perumal-Alwar-Emperumanaar-Jeeyar-Acharyar Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,


Gyanatthin Mooladhaaramaaga Irundhum, Saandhipani Maharishi’yidam poyi Ondrum Theriyadhadhupol Paadam Padittha ONE-AND-ONLY PARAMATHMA SRIKRISHNA BHAGAVAN ki Jai.

Sarvam Sri Krishna Kudumbham.

on November 22, 2017

Dear Bhakta

I appreciate your enthusiasm and efforts.
I think there is a misdirection in our discussion.
Both of us accept Supreme Lord Krishna as supreme and source of all..there is no debate here on that point.
The discussion started with my objection for your classification of Lord Shiva as jiva. I suggested that I have read Vedic references which classify Lord shiva under shiva tatva which is neither bhagawan nor jiva which you say is incorrect.

Interestingly I tried to play enpani 7 audio and it does not work.
I reiterate when some basic introduction is done exceptions are not discussed that is why Swami does not speak about Shiva tattva.
I heard audio 10- 3 types of jivas – badha muktha and nitya. So there are subcasiifcations under jiva also…so in general jivas take birth but nitya jivas don’t …similarly among nitya jivas there are subclassification…which we will hear from swami one day…
So my request is don’t classify Lord shiva as ordinary jiva.
Since you want reference of shastras I am quoting here one…Brahma-saṁhitā (5.45) in this way:
kṣīraṁ yathā dadhi vikāra-viśeṣa-yogāt
sañjāyate na hi tataḥ pṛthag asti hetoḥ
yaḥ śambhutām api tathā samupaiti kāryād
govindam ādi-puruṣaṁ tam ahaṁ bhajāmi

Lord Śiva is considered to be like yogurt (dahi). Yogurt is nothing but transformed milk; nonetheless, yogurt cannot be accepted as milk. Similarly, Lord Śiva holds almost all the powers of Lord Viṣṇu, and he is also above the qualities of the living entity, but he is not exactly like Viṣṇu, just as yogurt, although transformed milk, is not exactly like milk.

Since you are very learned and dedicated follower of swami I think you may be fortunate to meet you can confirm the same with swami…I think he can only resolve this .


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1 on November 23, 2017

Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,

Sri Dasarathiye Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,


Dear Baktha,


Thanks for the Comprehension/understanding about Sriman Narayan as the ParamAthma THE SUPREME and understanding about the THREE Tatvams based on Swami’s Pravachanam references and asking further clarification about Shiva (either Chit or 4th tatvam between ParamAthma and CHit).



Adiyen will start in progression based on Swami’s ENpani & Upanyasams.



As Swami says in Upanyasams Here are the TRUE Charateristics/Qualities/Nature of a JeevAthma (Chit):


1) Aanandhamayam aanavan (Full of Happiness ONLY)

2) GYanamaey Oruvaanavan (Made of FULL Gyanam/Knowledge ONLY)

3) Adimaithanam Udayavan (Sub-Servient to Sriman Narayanan)


So, Adiyen or Bhaktha or or any other Bhakthas or any Devathas Brahmas/Shiva/Indra etc…posses all the three Qualities WITH NO DEFIECNY.

The DIFFERENCE in behaviour arises due to the amount of Karmas covered in that JeevAThma which makes it behave differently due to Rajas/Tamas embeded on Each JeevAThmas in the form of KARMAS/VAASANAS.


Swami has said in upanyasam as EACH JeevAThma (all of us/DEvathas) are “Like a DIAMOND (with all the above 3 Qualities). SO a DIAMOND Glows by itself (no need to Impart light in tis NATURAL STATE). Sicne we are in theis Samsaram (Leela Viboothi), we are covered with KARMAS/VAASANAS with Rajas/Tamas Gunas which means Diamond covered with Dirt. So, once the Dirt is removed, we don’t need to impart light to Diamond, since it will glow by itself as “Swayam Prakasham”. THis sit eh Natural State of a Diamond. Diamond is ourselves JeevAthmas (only Gyanam/Aandndham/Adimaithanam) & Dirt is our Karmas/Vaasanas.


This NATURAL STATE of JeevAthma is attained only when we reach Sri Vikuntam. So all Devathas/Humans or anything in this Samsarams are all covered with Dirt (KARMAS/VAASANAS). We can only do CHidda SUddhi (Cleansing the KArmas by Spiritual Upliftment) but KARMAS cannot be Erased by US until SRIMAN NARAYANN gives Moksham ‘SriVAikuntam’ for us.


Thats is one the reason a SriVaishavaite doesn’t focus on Devathas, since it will drag us to start having ICCHA (Desire) to have those posts and we will forget about teh Nithya Vibhoothi SriVaikuntam the PERMANENT HAPPY PLACE.




Regarding the Brahma Samhita 5.45 verse, it doesnot talk about additional Tatvam. It Tells ONLY how Sriman Narayanan “Distributes” HIS Powers to a JivaAthma (Chit) for the Shiva Post for Dissolution.

Based on Swami’s Upanyasam, please see in above Thread:

B) Next about ‘HOW’ Sriman Narayan distributes HIS POWERS to other JeevAthmas.

Tomorrow, if Bhatka is put in that Shiva post or any other Devatha post, Sriman Narayan gives HIS some of the Powers to Bhakta itsself to fullfill the taska ssigned in that post like SHiva post or Brahma post. Thats doesn’t make us a seperate Tatvam from Chit (JeevAthma).




Tatvam is only THREEE as per Shastars/Vedas whcih Swami says in Enpani #07 as in above thread: A) The Three Tatvaas based on Shastram Enpani #07:).

(Adiyen not sure, why the player is not working for this particular clip. Adiyen also not able to play it now, but was able to listen in the past). Please get “Sri Vishista Advaitam CD” from KinchitKaram which will provide detailed explanation about the 3 Tavams and nature of ParamAThma and nature of JeevAThma.




Sub-Dividing “Chit” in to three categories.


Enpani #10: “3 catergories of Jiva”


1) BaddhAthma (Baddhargal)

JeevAthama who is trapped with ‘KARMAS’ all the time (Baddha patta Athma). Our ‘Karmas’ are also Anaadhi (undefined or unlimited time). BaddhAthma are the ones immersed in ‘Samsaram’ for Anaadhi Kaalam –> All of us in Countless Qty’s (all 33million Demi-gods (Brahma, Shiva etc…), all humans like us, all birds, all animals, all micro organisms, aquatic etc….


2) MukhtAtma (Mukthargal)

Same above BaddhAthma but with ‘NO KARMAS’. This is just a NAME Change. This happens when released from ‘Samsaram’ to ‘SriVaikuntam’ crossing Viraja Nadhi to do Kainkaryam to Divya DAmpaTHis (Perumal-Thayar) –> All of those Countless Qty’s who has ‘AASAI’ to get released from Samsaram with Acharya Ramanujar Krupai.


3) NithyaAthma (Nithyargal)

They are also JeevAthma who was never a BaddhAthma & never a MukthAthma. Swami says in another discourse about NithyAthma as “Asprishta Nithya Gandhargal” which means, they are ‘Permanently’ in SriVaikuntam who have never had any karmas at any times. In Simple statement, They are in SriVaikuntam WITHOUT any KARMAS for Annadhi Kaalam.

Example: Vishwakshenar, AadhiSheshan, Garudan, Shankam, Chakkaram etc….BhagvAn Sriman Narayanan has given HIS same Divine Qualities to them as well.




Sub-Dividing “Achit” in to three categories.


Enpani #12: “3 catergories of Achit”


a) Suddha Tatvam: ONLY Sathavam. NO mixture of Rajas & Tamas.

No time based, No deterioration (no no start date and hence no expiry date)

Permanent Aanandham’ means ‘Nithyam Sukham’ (‘SriVaiukuntam’ only).

Example is BhagavAn Sriman Narayana and HIS Poorna Avatarams like SriRama, SriKrishna, SriVaraha, SriNarasimha, etc..

It is called Aprakritha mandalam (Doesn’t Change. ONLY Swayam Prakasham).



b) Mishra Tatvam: Mixed with Rajas, Tamas & Sathva.

Example is ‘Samsaram’.

Permanent SUFFERING‘ means ‘Anithyam Asukham’ (Only Pain with little fake pleasure).

When Chit (Jeevathama) keeps seeing Mishra Tatvam, Gyanam (Spritual knowledge) will not improve. When Chit (Jeevathma) keep seeeing Suddha Tatvam, then our Gyanam (Spiritual knowledge) will improve. Thats why we are suppose to do Dyanam only on Sriman Narayanan Thirumeni.



c) Kaalam (Time)

It COVERS Everything and also KEEPS CHANGING by itself and it also it changes the one which it has covered.

‘Samsaram’ is COVERED with Kaalam (Time).

Time-based, So deterioration (every start has an expiry date). We get a above Mishra Tatvam Body, so that body has an expiry date.

It is called Prakritha mandalam (Keeps Changing/ Azhiyakkodiyadhu).

Swami also explains in more details on separate lengthier discourses as well.




Based on Bhaktas responses, It appears that in deep Inner mind of Bhakta, Bhakta would like to get Staright answer from Swami, though there sufficient references are provided from Swami’s PRavachanams.

So, adiyen will put Bhaktas additional question in a separate post.




Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan,

Adiyen Acharya Dasan,

Adiyen Ramanuaja Dasan,

Uyya Oraey Vazhi Udayavar ThiruvAdi,

Maadu Maeithu Kondu Irundha ParamAthma SriKrishna BhagavAn ki Jai.

on November 23, 2017

dear Bhakta

thanks.what you have said is all correct.but i reiterate that lord Shiva is a person not post like Brahma or Indra.

thanks for posting separate request to Swami.

i am not sure what lord wants to indicate by making enpani 07 not working !

Also if we strictly confine to 3 tatvam Mahalakshmi is classified under which tattva?

i heard 57 and 138 enpani audios.138 is funny like our discussion.


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0 on November 24, 2017

Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,


Dear Bhaktha,


Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami has said in one of the past Enpani that a Bhakta should be involved in BhagavAt Anubhavam and not on Vicharam (debate), since those are done between Learned Scholars/Pandithargal after learning it properly under a Acharya/Guru to establish the Final Essence of Shastras / Vedas.


Adiyen don’t have any question about  Three Tatvams from Swami’s Upanyasams , since those are PoorvAcharyars teachings based on Shastras/vedas.


Adiyen only Regurgitate as much as possible without mixing adiyen’s OWN thoughts in the above threads.


Adiyen follow what Swami says in uoanyasams.


Adiyen is only SHARING what Swami has said in Upanyasams with references from Swami’s Pravachanams. Hence adiyen doesn’t understand what Bhakta mean by ‘funny discussion’.


Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Yellarudaya Manadhayum Aandananaey,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam,

Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,

Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu.

  • Liked by
1 on November 24, 2017

Srimatae Ramanujaya Namaha,

Dear Bhakta,

Enpani #846 “Shastram Murpokku Vaadhama” especially at the end, Swami says we should consider to analyse, only if a learned scholar defends Shastras. So if someone is misleading Bhakta by saying 4 tatvams, please ignore them and follow the Shastras/Vedas which says 3 tatvams.

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam,
Uyya Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,
Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu.

on November 24, 2017

Dear Bhakta

i came to this conclusion few discussions back ..i did mention it is complex topic for us…only reason i started was because you mentioned lord shiva as a post.

Also which tattvam is Sri Mahalaxmi?


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Sri Ramanuja Munaye Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruve Namaha,



Danyosmi Swami for the Enpai #890 “NarayanAn “Sorporul” and the “Three Tatvams”, ParamAthma; JeevAthmas ‘Chit’ (NARArgal), Jada Porul ‘Achit’ (NARArargal) in a simple way in 7 minutes audio clip.


“NARAha” Kootal “AYANAM” –> நாராஹா  + அயனம் == NA RA YA NAN (நாராயணன்).


AYANAM அயனம், split in to two meanings:

1) Ithanaal Adikiroam,
(NARArargalukku ‘UPAYAM’aaga Irukkiraar, NarayanAne Vazhiyaaga Irukkiraar.

2) Ithanai Adikiroam,
NarayanAn THiruvAdi’yai Adaigiraargal ‘UPEYAM’, Mukthi (Moksham).


For all “Chit & Achit (NARArgal)”, ParamAThma NARAYANAN is Path & Destination.


UPAYAM (Vazhiyum Avare/Path to Moksham), and UPEYAM (Adayum idamum Avare/Destination/Mukthi) , both ar Sriman NarayanAn for all the Narargal (Chit/Achit).


Devareer Thiruvadigalukku Pallaandu Paadi ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam,
Thayar-Perumal-Alwar-EmperumanaAr-Acharyar Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,
Ranu Chod Rai SriKrishna BhagavAN ki Jai,
Sarvam SriKrishna Kudumbham,
Sarvam SriKrishnarpanam Asthu

on January 16, 2018

Dhanyosmi for determined effort to fully clear my doubts.

But there are two unanswered questions
1. Will we classify Mahalakshmi as jiva tattva? Even if we do it is not a post…no body can become mahalakshmi in any birth it is fixed service position.
2. Similarly Lord Shiva s position is fixed no other jiva can become Lord Shiva.

All of them serve Lord Narayana…there is no doubt in that though.


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