Namaskaram swamy.
Brahmam is stated to be with both form and without form. There are many names for Perumal with form in SriVaishnavsim. What is the name of Formless Brahmam in SriVaishnavsim?.
adiyen
SriVaishnava dasan
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Swamy, I think all names applicable to that formless brahmam also
Swamy, noted.
Let us see whether Velukkudi swamy gives any reply.
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Sriman Narayanan is the name
“BrahmaNi SrinivAsE” – Says Sri Ramanuja
Instead of formless, we should say Blemishless.
Kurai Ondrum IllAdha Govinda.
We don’t accept NirguNa , NirviseSha as nothing. While we say no bad guNa, no bad visESha.
Brahmam is SaguNam, SavisEsham only.
Instead of saying niroopi or aroopi we should say “swaroopi” as he is in his own form.
Dasanudasan
Our scriptures tells very clearly that Brahmam is both with form and without form.
Then read scriptures & get enlightened by it Swamy
Why even try asking what is the name of nothing?
For a Brahmam without the attribute called “form’ , how can there be an attribute called “name”?
It’s high time we correct our understanding Swamy.
Formless, nameless nothing = Godless
“Without form” = is defined as one of the forms.
It means the form which you cannot perceive in your limited vision. Meaning “non materialistic” unnatural aprAkrutha form.
Ref; Hinduism Stack Exchange
Ramanujacharya’s Sri Bhashya interprets Nirguna as “no negative qualities”. According to Ramanujacharya Brahman is characterized by the Kalyana Gunas ascribed to him by the Pancharatra texts – Jnana, Bala, Aishvarya, Virya, Shakti, and Tejas
https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/24263/is-nirguna-brahman-in-vishishtadvaita-formless-impersonal
https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/14713/what-are-the-views-of-vishishtadvaita-on-nirguna-brahman
Dasanudasan
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Then read scriptures & get enlightened by it Swamy
Why even try asking what is the name of nothing?
In this forum, we are asking queries addressing to swamy, many from scriptures, for which we do not know the answer or to get the answer quickly without spending much of time or even exploration may not be fruitful.
No member can comment why one is asking such a question. Hence, such a disgraceful comment is unwarranted.
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Then devareer’s response should have been”scriptures says like this then how to understand the same?” not a mere conclusion like “scriptures say like this formless” therefore “your answer is wrong”.
Anyway, adiyen had shared from Udayavar:s response. If comment is disgraceful it belongs to Udayavar not me.
Dasanudasan
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“BrahmaNi SrinivAsE” – Says Sri Ramanuja
The problem is, you haven’t had the patience to go through the response & got stuck in criticism. Adiyen will give devareer time, read again.
Brahmam is SaguNam & SavisEsham .
Brahmam is never formless or attributeless even though scriptures seem to denote the same.
The point of my post “just don’t go merely with scripture wordings but follow achArya footpath”.
Dasanudasan
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Also nobody said “No member can comment why one is asking such a question”
Adiyen clearly stated:
“Why even try asking what is the name of nothing?”
Meaning: nothing will have a name?” Also by disqualifying all attributes of brahamam we are equalling Brahmam to Nothing or non existence which is “nAstika VAdam”.
Also devareer said “Scriptures say formless” & what is the name.of “Brahmam”. Isn’t it contradictory? Brahmam itself a name right? Or some kind of identifier like “God”.
Devareer misunderstood. May be adiyen could have worded it better. Instead of talking on points devareer taking it to individual criticism which is actually “unwarranted” & “unnecessary”.
If devareer can read from scriptures alone, it will lead to misunderstanding.
Dasanudasan
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By the way hereafter if adiyen find “SriVaishnava dasan” in this forum adiyen will stop responding.
Kshamikka Prarthikkiren
Dasanudasan
Vikram Swamy,
Udaiyavar’s answers are not disgraceful. The way someone presents it can be disgraceful. That is the case here. So, it is disgraceful to shift the blame on Udaiyavar.
By the way hereafter if adiyen find “SriVaishnava dasan” in this forum adiyen will stop responding.
I have heard that Bernard Shaw has said “To quit smoking is very easy; I have done that many times”.
Likewise, for Vikram swamy, to quit this forum forever is very easy; he has done is so many times.
Have you been keeping count, Vikram swamy?
adiyen SriVaishnava dasan.
Yes adiyen is disgraceful
All devareer are magnanimous
Fantastic
Adiyen Sri VaishNavam Dasan
Dasanudasan
For backing up Udayavar so many people coming “kaccham.kattindu” as if I did something wrong. Good.
Please let me know what part of my presentation was so “disgraceful”?
Was it me responding or the one who challenged Udayavar by saying “shastra clearly says formless” even after Udayavar saying “BrahmaNi SrinivAsE”?
Adha neenga sonna enna , illa Naa sonna enna?
Illa Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy dhAn sollanum , nee vAya moodiko nu soldrel, okay 👍 I am fine
Ippo puriyardhu
Neenga ellArum summa “Sri VaishNavam Dasan ” nu sollindu
“Oora yEmAtharEL” ?
AduthavAla edhuthu erinju pesa solli UNGA UDAYAVAR solli kuduthArA?
“Nee YAr da Udayavar sonnadha thiruppi soldrathukku?” Adha enga kuzhumam pathukkum, we are pAdhukAvalar of Sampradayam, Ramanuja SiddhAntha SthApaka ” nu sollittu pOga vEndiyadhu dhANey
Appo Udayavar sonnadhu “thappu” nu sonnavar disgraceful kedaiyAdhu, adha edhuthu sonnavar disgraceful wow hats off!!!
I never care who is at the other end, it is the point that matters. All I asked “If I can self learn from ShAstram, why bother Udayavar SiddhAntham”?
Adha pathi pesum Voi. Neer dhan graceful Aachey!!!
May be I am shameless so asking repeatedly
Even after my explanation, how can you & co can brand me like that?
Did I anywhere say “disgraceful” or “unwarranted” first? Adiyen. Just reflected Udayavar’s answer. So any praise or Cons will go to Udayavar only!!!
PotruvAr portalum thootruvAr thootralum pogattum KaNNanukkEy
Adiyen beleive in Sarvam Sri KrishnArpaNam asthu in full not just in praise
Na apdi dhan solluven.
If You and co are so intelligent to read from scriptures itself why even ask questions in Dharma Sandeha?
I retain my point. This time.more open & blunt.
Is it the way to answer “Shastra clearly say formless” so whatever “Udayavar said is wrong”?
So Udayavar theriyAma sollitAr , rheriyAma present panitAr nu solla varELA?
“BrahmaNi SrinivAsE ” – Udayavar says
So Brahmam = Srinivasan
Nu clear explanation kuduthEnA illaiyA?
Oh adha adiyen sollitEn , adhAn thappa?
Adiyen budhisAli illa nu solla varEl
Indha mara mandai kku adhu oraikka mAtengardhu
Neer yAruku venAlum friendA irundhuttu pom, I don’t care
Adiyen retain my point, you all doing mistake , grave mistake
“Scriptures say clearly Brahmam is Formless”
Even after adiyen saying
“BrahmaNi SrinivAse” – says Ramanuja
Now tell me who is disgraceful?
Enna individual criticism Panni oora yematharadha? That’s how this forum is made up of i beleive instead of talking points talking it to individual’s account
Ippo soldren , enna Udayavar mannichiduvar because I told in good spirit
But ungala yaraiyum mannika maatar
But I will pray
“Yaan Petra Veezhvu NaaloorAnum peruga”
Enakku neengalum.Vendam.indha foramum vendam
Adiyen not a BhAgavadhan
Devareer & Co are Parama BhAgavadhAl keeping a count of “quitting” 🙏🙆 Good Job 👏
Dasanudasan
Adiyen was typing “Vaazhvu” but BrahmaNi SrinivAsan has made me type “Veezhvu”.not sure what is happening.
Something about to happen.
Dasanudasan
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Kambandasan Swamy,
Did devareer notice?
Adiyen said “if anywhere adiyen find Sri VaishNava Dasan” adiyen will stop responding
But devareer said:
“adiyen SriVaishnava dasan”
& Adiyen responded what does it mean? 😂
Dasanudasan
Did devareer notice?
Adiyen said “if anywhere adiyen find Sri VaishNava Dasan” adiyen will stop responding But devareer said: “adiyen SriVaishnava dasan” & Adiyen responded what does it mean?
Not just that! I also noticed that you have yourself said “Adiyen Sri VaishNavam Dasan” It just means that Perumal is mercifully highlighting the consistent inconsistence and the fallacies in your postings and giving you repeated opportunities to introspect. I am sure eventually you too will learn; that is the glory of our Perumal, acharyas and the process. Anyone who is sticking to their lotus feet will definitely be duly corrected. If He is tolerating even someone like me, what to speak of someone like you who is genuinely devoted to acharyas and Perumal. We all continue to learn. One good example to learn from is Sri Badrinarayana swamy who has responded so gracefully to this question.
adiyen dasan.
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
——–I also noticed that you have yourself said “Adiyen Sri VaishNavam Dasan” ——-
Adiyen said if others say “Sri VaishNava Dasan” not myself
Devareer require better eye power glasses adiyen beleive
By the way “dasanudasan” always means “Sri VaishNava Dasan’s dasan”
Dasanudasan
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
agoBadrinarayana Ramanuja Dasan always gracious unlike some in this forum
Dasanudasan
Graceness lies in sticking to the point not resorting to individual criticisms or fuelling to the fire of one who does mistakes.
Again those who involve in individual criticism including me are conflicting Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy because he once said:
“Those who don’t have substance in argument only will resort to individual criticism”
Till now Kambandasan Swamy has not mentioned what is “wrong” in my presentation of Udayavar’s interpretation.
It concludes the matter.
“Herd mentality, mob mentality, pack mentality”
Again in Vadivelu style
“Evlo adichAlum thAnguvAn but Ivan romba nallavan”
Kambandasan Swamy is not helping to the issue but indulging in “vyartham” arguments thinking of changing others while forgetting to introspect oneself!
Perumaley Kambandasan Swamy kku nalla Buddhi Kudungo please 🙏🙏🙏🙏
Dasanudasan
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Can there be a better way to way to address the formless Brahamam other than our Nammalwars Thiruvaimozhi 1.1.9?
2799 உளன் எனில் உளன் *அவன் உருவம் இவ் உருவுகள் *
உளன் அலன் எனில் *அவன் அருவம் இவ் அருவுகள் **
உளன் என இலன் என *இவை குணம் உடைமையில்*
உளன் இரு தகைமையொடு *ஒழிவு இலன் பரந்தே
We can find similar terms used in Thiruvaimozhi
1.1.3,
2793 இலன் அது உடையன் இது* என நினைவு அரியவன்*
நிலனிடை விசும்பிடை *உருவினன் அருவினன் **
புலனொடு புலன் அலன் *ஒழிவு இலன் பரந்த *அந்
நலன் உடை ஒருவனை *நணுகினம் நாமே (3)
1.5.10,
2844 சார்ந்த இரு வல் வினைகளும் சரித்து *மாயப் பற்று அறுத்து *
தீர்ந்து தன்பால் மனம் வைக்கத் திருத்தி வீடு *திருத்துவான் **
ஆர்ந்த ஞானச் சுடர் ஆகி *அகலம் கீழ் மேல் அளவு இறந்து *
நேர்ந்த உருவாய் அருவாகும்* இவற்றின் உயிராம் நெடுமாலே !(10)
3.10.10
3121 தளர்வு இன்றியே என்றும் எங்கும் பரந்த*
தனிமுதல் ஞானம் ஒன்றாய்*
அளவு உடை ஐம்புலன்கள் அறியாவகையால்*
அருவு ஆகி நிற்கும் **
வளர் ஒளி ஈசனை மூர்த்தியை*
பூதங்கள் ஐந்தை இரு சுடரை*
கிளர் ஒளி மாயனை கண்ணனைத் தாள் பற்றி*
யான் என்றும் கேடு இலனே (10)
4.3.3
3147 ஏக மூர்த்தி இரு மூர்த்தி*
மூன்று மூர்த்தி பல மூர்த்தி ஆகி*
ஐந்து பூதம் ஆய்
இரண்டு சுடர் ஆய்* அருவு ஆகி **
நாகம் ஏறி நடுக் கடலுள் துயின்ற*
நாராயணனே*
உன் ஆகம் முற்றும் அகத்து அடக்கி*
ஆவி அல்லல் மாய்த்ததே (3)
5.8.10
3319 ## வாரா அருவாய் வரும் என் மாயா!* மாயா மூர்த்தியாய்*
ஆரா அமுதாய் அடியேன் ஆவி* அகமே தித்திப்பாய் **
தீரா வினைகள் தீர என்னை ஆண்டாய் * திருக்குடந்தை*
ஊராய்* உனக்கு ஆள் பட்டும்* அடியேன் இன்னம் உழல்வேனோ? (10)
8.4.2
3597 எங்கள் செல்சார்வு யாமுடை அமுதம்*
இமையவர் அப்பன் என் அப்பன்*
பொங்கு மூவுலகும் படைத்து அளித்து அழிக்கும்*
பொருந்து மூவுருவன் எம் அருவன் **
செங்கயல் உகளும் தேம் பணை புடை சூழ்*
திருச்செங்குன்றூர்த் திருச்சிற்றாறு
அங்கு அமர்கின்ற* ஆதியான் அல்லால்
யாவர் மற்று என் அமர் துணையே? (2)
9.4.8
3713 உரு ஆகிய*ஆறு சமயங்கட்கு எல்லாம்*
பொரு ஆகி நின்றான்* அவன் எல்லாப் பொருட்கும் **
அரு ஆகிய ஆதியை* தேவர்கட்கு எல்லாம்*
கரு ஆகிய கண்ணனை* கண்டுகொண்டேனே (8)
Thirumangai alwar have also used similar word to describe the formless brahman
Periya Thirumozhi 7.6.7
1604 திரு வாழ் மார்வன்-தன்னை * திசை மண் நீர் எரி முதலா *
உரு ஆய் நின்றவனை * ஒலி சேரும் மாருதத்தை **
அரு ஆய் நின்றவனை * தென் அழுந்தையில் மன்னி நின்ற *
கரு ஆர் கற்பகத்தை-* கண்டுகொண்டு களித்தேனே-7
adiyen,
Badrinarayana Ramanuja Dsasan.
Badrinarayana Ramanuja Dasan swamy,
Thank you for your efforts and the details provided. The details are noted without offering any comment.
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Sri Dushyanth Sridhar Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
pAsuram
உளன் எனில் உளன் அவன் உருவம் இவ்வுருவுகள்
உளன் அலன் எனில் அவன் அருவம் இவ்வருவுகள்
உளன் என இலன் என இவை குணம் உடைமையில்
உளன் இரு தகைமையொடு ஒழிவிலன் பரந்தே
uLan enil uLan avan uruvam ivvuruvugaL
uLan alan enil avan aruvam ivvaruvugaL
uLan ena ilan ena ivai guNam udaimaiyil
uLan iru thagailmaiyodu ozhivilan paranthE
AzhwAr tells a sUnyavAdhi “You cannot prove bhagavAn‘s non-existence through his presence or absence. In general, bhAvam (presence) or abhAvam (absence) of an entity/attribute is based on the place, time and form. When we say bhagavAn is present, that means he is present within gross forms which are visible and when say bhagavAn is absent, that means he is present within subtle forms which are invisible.
Here formless is referred as Subtle form
Those who say he is formless
Please read VishistAdvaitam properly & come back here.
http://divyaprabandham.koyil.org/index.php/2015/04/thiruvaimozhi-1-1-9-ulan-enil-ulan/
Dasanudasan
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A story by Srimath Vedantha Ramanuja Mahadesika Swamy
Repeat story:
In North India , A Guru kept telling only the greatness of Sri Krishna to his disciples.
While those devotees came to Partha Sarathy temple, they were astonished to see Krishna driving chariot for Arjuna!
Now, devotees felt displeased with his Guru because he hid the Down to Earth attitude of Krishna for his devotees.
Similar thing happened in this thread, I reflected Swamy Ramanuja’s interpretation, if that is perceived as against Shastram or in correct presentation (in whatever way) it goes to my Guru as it was not my individual opinion
Am pitying on the ignorance of comprehension
In Vadivelu style:
“Ungalaya ellAm pAthA enakku PAvamA irukku”
Dasanudasan
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Indha formula unmaiya Vida
VArthai JAlam kku dhAn madhippu
Vikram Swami,
Please cool down!
In my opinion, nobody in this forum has ever disrespected jagatAcharyar!
Jayaram Swami had a query as to why the scriptures maintain that brahmam is both form and formless.
You answered it perfectly within the scope of our sampradAyam but saying “then read scriptures yourself and get enlightened by it” was an unnecessary addition.
– Adiyen
Also, Velukkudi swami has clearly told us that we should be emphatic in our viewpoints about siddhAntam, without losing our temper and respect for the receiver.
None of us are niraikudam here, but we are at different steps on a staircase.
So let all of us learn from each other.
“கூடியிருந்து குளிர்வதே நம் லக்ஷ்யம்.
கூடியிருந்து எரிவது அல்ல”.
– Adiyen
Dhanyosmi Srivats Swami for echoing adiyen’s thought process, hope Vikram Swami corrects his behavior in the future
Swamy,
@Badrinarayana Ramanuja Dasan & SrivatS
Why no one is even noticing the words “disgraceful” & “unwarranted”?
Whose behaviour needs to be corrected? Where were you both at that time?
Udayavar said “BrahmaNi SrinivAsE”
As he countered enakku kovam vandhadhu.
Ippdi vechupomA
“Appo ShAstrathula illAdhadhu Udayavar sAdhichArA”?
You start of a row & getting point from heating exchanges will not solve anyone’s purpose.
You please focus on better things in life.
We (adiyen & SriVaishNava Dasan) Swamy will sort it out between ourselves we don’t require your panchAyath
Dasanudasan
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