Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram Swami!

SB 1.8: Prayers by Queen Kuntī

Srimad Bhagavatam 1.8.26 — My Lord, Your Lordship can easily be approached, but only by those who are materially exhausted. One who is on the path of [material] progress, trying to improve himself with respectable parentage, great opulence, high education and bodily beauty, cannot approach You with sincere feeling.

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

Hare Krishna! Few verses from Bhagavad Gita connected to the topic.

Bhagavad Gita 7.3 — ஆயிரமாயிரம் மனிதர்களில் யாரேனும் ஒருவன் பக்குவமடைய முயற்சி செய்யலாம். அவ்வாறு பக்குவமடைந்தவர்களில் கூட யாரேனும் ஒருவனே என்னை உண்மையாக அறிகிறான்.

Bhagavad Gita 7.19 — பற்பல பிறவிகளுக்குப் பின், உண்மையான அறிவுடையவன், எல்லாக் காரணங்களுக்கும் காரணமாக, எல்லாமாக என்னை அறிந்து, என்னிடம் சரணடைகிறான். அத்தகைய மகாத்மா மிகவும் அரிதானவன்.

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

Danyosmi Swamy.

Adiyen’s question is slightly different. Very few attempts to understand Lord is fine. What factor triggers this attempt in the first instance is my question.

Despite various troubles in life, many don’t pray God and still remain atheist or is devoted only at surface level. Kunti says like that because she already has Gnana and hence doesn’t want to deviate from the path.

Adiyen’s question is, in case of a person whose Gnana is completely hidden, how does the first feeling of attaining God and allowing Him to take control of us in that path arises?

Is it right to say if one should have done good karma to get such an opportunity in first instance?

Ideal case. Please consider a complete Atheist. But, he will not remain atheist in all births. He will also pray God in one birth or another and will spiritually progress. But, triggered by what factor, he will get belief in first instance? Is it due to his good karma? Because, he already has Independence to choose the path of Moksha but he didn’t. Guided by what factor he chooses the right path?

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

Hare Krishna! Aneha koti namaskaram Swami!

Yes Swami, our Swami has made it clear in multiple discourses that one’s own karma is what gets him closer or away from the lord.

Bhagavad Gita 9.29 — நான் யாரிடமும் பொறாமை கொள்வதோ, பாரபட்சம் காட்டுவதோ இல்லை. நான் அனைவருக்கும் சமமானவன். ஆயினும் பக்தியுடன் எனக்கு அன்புத் தொண்டு புரிபவன் யாராயினும், அவன் எனது நண்பன். அவன் என்னில் இருக்கிறான். நானும் அவனுக்கு நண்பனாகிறேன்.

Bhagavad Gita 6.40 — புருஷோத்தமரான முழு முதற்கடவுள் கூறினார்: பிருதாவின் மகனே, நற்செயல்களில் ஈடுபட்ட ஆன்மீகி இவ்வுலகிலோ பரவுலகிலோ அழிவை அடைவதில்லை. என் நண்பனே, நன்மையைச் செய்பவன் தீமையை அடைவதேயில்லை.

Bhagavad Gita 6.41 — வெற்றியடையாத யோகி, புண்ணிய ஆத்மாக்களின் லோகங்களில் பற்பல வருடங்கள் அனுபவித்தபின், நல்லோரின் குடும்பத்தில், அல்லது பெரும் செல்வந்தரின் குடும்பத்தில் பிறக்கின்றான்.

Bhagavad Gita 6.42 — அல்லது (நீண்ட கால யோகப் பயிற்சிக்குப் பின் வெற்றி அடையாதவர்) அறிவில் சிறந்து விளங்கும் ஆன்மீகிகளின் குலத்தில் பிறப்பது உறுதி. இத்தகு பிறவி நிச்சயமாக இவ்வுலகில் மிக அரிதானதாகும்.

Bhagavad Gita 6.43 — குரு மைந்தனே, அத்தகு பிறவியை அடைபவன், தனது முந்தைய பிறவியின் திவ்ய உணர்வினை மீண்டும் பெற்று, பூரண வெற்றியை அடைவதற்காக, அந்நிலையிலிருந்து மேலும் முன்னேற்றமடைய முயல்கிறான்.

Bhagavad Gita 6.44 — தனது பூர்வ ஜன்ம திவ்ய உணர்வின் காரணத்தால், யோகத்தின் கொள்கைகளை நாடாமலேயே, அவன் அவற்றால் இயற்கையாகக் கவரப்படுகிறான். அத்தகைய ஆர்வமுடைய ஆன்மீகி, எப்பொழுதும் சாஸ்திரங்களின் சடங்குகளிலிருந்து உயர்ந்து நிற்கிறான்.

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

Danyosmi

Thanks for the references Swami

Sri:
We have got a bit if misunderstanding here adiyen guess. Swamy’s upanyasam on Karma is for closeness with perumAL in material world not for liberation.

Swami has clearly said MOKSHAM IS GIVEN BY HIS SWATHANTHRIYAM (his independent will).

This DIVINE INTERVENTION is by his choice & NOT by our Karma.

Since Srinivasan Pranesh Swamy is obsessed with scriptural references

As per Krishna Premi Swami: in Srimad Bhagavath Gita

Chapter 6: Sankhya-yoga
TEXT 45
prayatnad yatamanas tu
yogi samsuddha-kilbisah
aneka-janma-samsiddhas
tato yati param gatim

After aneka janma samsiddha: (many janmAs later) in same Gita few shlokAs later PerumAL says “I will take him back in same janmA”.

What a CONFLICT?

It means, 1st approach is by our own Karma. 2nd is by HIS WISH.

The same perumAL who made nammazhwar cry for 1000s of pAsurams gave liberation to Madura kavi Azhwar in 10 pAsurams the one who sung his AchArya nammAzhwar himself and 10 pAsurams for the one who sung RANGANATHAN himself the ThurupAnAzhwar.

We cannot ask why 1000 for one 10 for another? Is it AzhwAr’s Karma? No , it’s his wish.

It’s purely Perumal’s swAthanthriyam and “VICHITRA EESHWARA SANKALPAM” as Velukkudi Swamy used to fondly quote.

Dasanudasan

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swamy,

Thanks for elaborate explanations. Adiyen have few questions. Rather, let Adiyen explain the question with more clarity.

“Swamy’s upanyasam on Karma is for closeness with perumAL in material world not for liberation.”

I do agree. Adiyen’s question is on starting point of desire to Moksha in this material world. It’s fine that even Sat karma are to elevate one but Moksha is attained by pure love and complete surrender. But, what decides the starting point of this Sat karma or the desire of Jiva to become close to Perumal?

“Swami has clearly said MOKSHAM IS GIVEN BY HIS SWATHANTHRIYAM (his independent will).”

Thank you Swamy. Yes I agree this in secondary sense. Will it not become that God is partial, if God chooses Jivas for Moksha irrespective of eligibility criteria using His Swathantaryam? So, there have to be some eligibility criteria even for Lord to exhibit His Swathantaryam.

Shri Velukkudi Swamy clearly said that God does not need permission of Jivas for Sristi and Samharam. But, when it comes to Stithi, that is protecting and granting Moksha, He expects Jiva to allow Him to take control. Once control is given, it is His choice on how and when to take us to Moksha. Certainly, God will not take control using His Swathantaryam unless a Jiva allows, if Adiyen understood Shri Velukkudi Swamy’s speech correctly.

So, Adiyen’s question is, “What makes Jiva to give this Anumathi or permission to God in first place?”

It is certainly his desire to attain God. But, “What makes him desirous of God in first place?”

It is not Swathantaryam of Lord because, in that case, God cannot be called impartial. If so, then what is that factor and eligibility criteria?

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

Again, if Adiyen has not understood your response due to Agyanam and repeating the same in different angle, kindly correct Adiyen.

One more thing Swamy. Let us not take comparison of Azhwars as example for this case.

The question is about a common man who didn’t have any desire to God before.

Tirukkacchi Nambigal and Koorathazhwar both sang Paasurams for rain. Tirukkacchi Nambigal sang lot of Paasurams but rain didn’t pour. Kooresar sang one Paasuram and it poured.

Nambigal asked Varadharajar, why so it happened? Varadhan said, “It doesn’t mean Kooresar is better than Nambigal. But, Perumal enjoyed Nambigal Paasurams and hence He wanted to listen more and more”.

In this case, both are surrendered devotees. Once surrendered, the control is with Perumal and He exhibits His Swathantaryam. Such may be the case of Nammazhwar and his disciple Madurakavi Azhwar. Even if a Jiva is eligible for Moksha, if Lord orders him to be in His service, he shall stay.

But, the question is about Jiva who has not yet allowed Lord to take control. In such cases, even Lord cannot forcefully take control without eligibility.

Hare Krishna!

Desire for Moksha is a 2 way process.

1. Desire for higher experience (PULL) – Moving towards Bhagavan
2. Disinterest in lower experience (PUSH) – Moving away from repetitive sense gratifications a.k.a Undu, Kettu…

Please refer Swami’s En PaNi on ‘Is pain a step in Bakti’. These 2 processes happen ‘simultaneously’ and influences each ‘other’

Sarvam Sri Krishnaarpanamastu!

Danyosmi Swamy

*This prahlAda Varadhan story is reproduced from Ahobila Mutt Narasimha Priya magazine article.

If anybody requires more information let adiyen know