Swamy, How to understand Athma different from Paramathma?

Updated 1 week ago in Karma
28 on June 18, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Srimathe Sri Varaha Mahadesikaya Namaha
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
Sri:

Jata Bharathan UpAkhyAnam Srimath Bhagavatham EnPaNi

Prathyakshama onnu irukku. Adhukku dhandanai selladhu. Athmava dhandikka mudiyadhu. Shareerathukku dhandanai theriyadhu.

Incorrect logic.

ShareerAthma BandhathOda pArkavendiya nerathula,

YAru Yara dhandikkaradhu endra kelvi engirundhu vandhadhu?

Appo Jata Bharathan yArukku Upadesham seidhAr?

AathmAvukkA ShareerathukkA?

Shareeram achith – So no point in Upadesham
Athma Chith – Already nyAna Swaroopan, no point in Upadesham

Why confuse all of us?

Dasanudasan

 
  • Liked by
Reply
0 on June 18, 2022

Am I controlling the body?
Am I stuck in the body?

Dasanudasan

  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel
0 on June 18, 2022

Na solli nakham valarugiradha?

  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel
0 on June 18, 2022

The evolution seems to happen on its own. I am stuck in this body I feel.

Bhishma had power to release his prAnan on the day he wished.

Sabari mata left the body at will in yogAgni.

What message these incidents convey? 🤔

Are we supposed to fully control but we think we aren’t?

Dasanudasan

  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel
0 on June 18, 2022

Does Athma regain consciousness after leaving this body?
If Indriyams are attached why not consciousness?

What is the state of Athma in sookshma Shareeram?

Dasanudasan

  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel
0 on June 19, 2022

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

For the initial question

Shareeram achith – So no point in Upadesham
Athma Chith – Already nyAna Swaroopan, no point in Upadesham

Why confuse all of us?

This is Perfectly True for NithyAthma and MukAthma and not for BhaddAthma.

 

NithyAthma:

Always in SriVaikunta (Nithya Vibhoothi) with no karma vaasana of Samsaram (Leela Vibhoothi).

 

MukAthma:

A BhaddAthma who reached Nithya Vibhoothi from Leela Vibhoothi through one of the ways while in Leela Vibhoothi.

Either by following:

1) Upasana Maargam (Karma, Gyanam, Bhakthi yoga which is very Tough to do), Or,

2) Sharanagathy Maargam (Falling in lotus feet of SriKrishna THE SUPREME ALMIGHTY GOD through the proper procedure and following it thoroughly, which is TOUGHER than Upasana Margham)

3) Ramanuja Sambhandham (Having a relationship with Swami RamanujAr either by doing Samasrayanam or Nyasam through any of HIS AcharyA lineages or having relationship with Swami RamanujAr through one of the 18 ways), so that the SriKrishna gives Moksham due to our relationship with Swami RamanujAr and not because of our Bhakthi or Sharanagathy, which is the EASIEST PATH for Moksham.

 

BhaddAthma:

The Athma which is covered by,

1) Karmas,

2) Vaasanas

3) Prakrithi Sambhandham,

4) Mixture of Sativa, Rajo, Tamo gunas,

5) Ruchi ( Interest in doing material through due to Vaasanas)

 

Analogy,

Diamond 💎  = Athma  (Only Gyana Swaroopam, all of us), covered with DIRT (the above Five).

Upadesams = Cleaning 🧹 the above FIVE,

 

so that the Diamond’s natural glowing capacity is revealed and it doesn’t require to impart light, since Diamond is “SELF GLOWING (Gyana Swaroopam)”. 

 

Since we are still BhaddAthma in Leela Vibhoothi, we NEED UPADESAMS (Spiritual Advice), so that we can get Gyanam to overcome the above Five and start following one of the Three Maargams for Moksham so that we can become as MukAthma. At that time, yes, we ALL will be only “Gyana swaroopam”, then we don’t need UPADESAMS.

 

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan.

  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel

Perfect answer Elayalwar Swami, so nice to see you back. adiyen missed you! 

Vikram Swami: adiyen knows for many of the questions asked above, devareer knows the answers but adiyen sharing thoughts below:

Am I controlling the body? – Superficially yes but if we consider the fact that Jeevatama is the sareeram of Paramatama then “அவனின்றி ஓர் அணுவும் அசையாது” becomes true

Am I stuck in the body? – Due to karma, yes

Na solli nakham valarugiradha? Because the jeevatama is inside the body, nail grows as part of the DNA process 

What message these incidents convey? – That through Acharya Anugraham, it’s possible to control our life breadth 

Are we supposed to fully control but we think we aren’t? Yes with Acharya Anugraham, and proper yoga we can control

Does Athma regain consciousness after leaving this body? Yes but it can exert only based on the body it has taken after this one

If Indriyams are attached why not consciousness? Jeevatama is always gnana swaroopan, so it never loses consciousness

What is the state of Athma in sookshma Shareeram? it never loses its original state

adiyen dasan! 

on June 20, 2022

Badrinarayana Ramanuja Dasan Swamy,

Thanks for taking pain in answering his mandha buddhi jeevan

“Are we supposed to fully control but we think we aren’t? Yes with Acharya Anugraham, and proper yoga we can control” –

By yogA, we better control the body, gain long life, go to samAdhi but one day we die.

This body has to worn off.

“Vaikuntam puguvadhu mannavar vidhiye”

Then why do unnecessary yoga & waste time here?

Again the same question, “Are we supposed to control the body even with Acharya anugraham, if yes why?”

Dasanudasan

Simple answer till we’re here, with our body we can use it do Kaimkaryam to Archai Perumaal and the bhagavathaas here.

on June 20, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

That Kainkaryam can be done evem without yoga.

Inga shareeeratha poshikkardhukku badhila Sri Vaikuntham poganum nu yaen thona matengardhu?

Namakam & Chamakam can gain what we want to do yagnya. Why advise yoga?

Yagnyo yagnyena Kalpatham

Yagnyam pandrathukkagavey yagnyam pandren, Ayul, Arogyam, Aishwaryam kudu

When one does yoga, how will he do SandhyAvandhanam?

So what you great people are saying,
“Yoga a step higher Nithya KarmAnushtAnam”? 🤔

If one is like jata bharathan does it exempt him to avoid all Nithya Naimittika karmAs?

Very simple logic, if one is sitting with eyes closed all day how will he/she do day to day karmas?

Dasanudasan

Show more replies
  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel
1 on June 20, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

“Since we are still BhaddAthma in Leela Vibhoothi, we NEED UPADESAMS (Spiritual Advice),” –

Then why Jata Bharathan Swamy is asking

“To whom are you giving punishment”? “Athma or the body”?

If the Upadesham is for the BaddhAthmA then Jata Bharathan Swamy’s punishment is also on the basis of being BaddhAthmA

As a role of a King, Rahugunan is doing his duty

After getting Upadesham did he stop giving punishment or what?

Velukkudi Swamy says “as Bharathan said, Don’t think you are giving punishment, you are just executing”

Very true, then also, a punishment is indeed a punishment. The nature of punishment doesn’t change as it is shAstric.

Indha kuttrathirkku idhu dhandanai nu shAstram soldradhu. Appo shAstram poiya?

ShAstram shareerathukku dhandanai kudukkiradha illai AathmAvukkA?

Don’t tell me Jata Bharathan Swamy don’t know this truth.

So, it means ,Bharathan Swamy himself does not have clarity!?

In this Leela-Vibbhuthi we are to be known as “ShareerAthma Bandhus” this is well clarified by Sri BhasyakArar Swamy.

“If I call you, your head turns” – Says Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy.

Which means, Athma responds via Shareeram

So in here, in this Leela Vibhuthi, there is no point in looking AthmA and Shareeram as seperate entities while in reality they are together.

Dasanudasan

on June 20, 2022

ElayaAlwar Swamy,

Dhanyosmi for taking pain in answering to this mandha budhi Madhavan’s questions.

Dhanyosmi but devareer’s answer does not fulfill my question. Please view my above response.

May be adiyen taking time to understand.

Dasanudasan

Show more replies
  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel
11 on June 20, 2022

Interesting discussion.

If one is like jata bharathan does it exempt him to avoid all Nithya Naimittika karmAs?From vikraminside

பொய்கை ஆழ்வார், முதல் திருவந்தாதி – Pasuram 2114

நகர மருள்புரிந்து நான்முகற்கு, பூமேல்

பகர மறைபயந்த பண்பன், – பெயரினையே

புந்தியால் சிந்தியா தோதி உருவெண்ணும்,

அந்தியா லாம்பனங் கென்?

Meaning

திருநாபிக் கமலத்திலே பிரமனுக்கு இருப்பிடத்தை ஏற்படுத்தியருளியும் (யோக்யர்களெல்லாரும்) ஓதும்படியாக வேதத்தை உபகரித்தும்வைத்த குணசாலியான எம் பெருமானுடைய திருநாமங்களை மனத்தினால் எண்ணாமல் ஜபம் செய்வதும் உருச் சொல்வதுமான ஸந்த்யாவந்தனம் முதலிய கர்மாநுஷ்டாநங்களால் உண்டாகப்போகிற பிரயோஜனம் என்ன?(ஒன்றுமில்லை.)

Reference

https://www.dravidaveda.org/?p=3910

adiyen

on June 21, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

திருப்பாணாழ்வார்

மந்திபாய்
வடவேங்கடமாமலை
வானவர்கள்
சந்தி செய்ய நின்றான்
அரங்கத் தரவின்அணையான்
அந்திபோல் நிறத்தாடையும்
அதன் மேலயனைப்
படைத்த தோரெழில்
உந்தி மேல தன்றோ
அடியேனுள்ளத்து இன்னுயிரே.

தமிழ் வேதம் –

வானவர்கள்
சந்தி செய்ய நின்றான்

வட மொழி வேதம் –

யத்ர பூர்வே சாத்யாஸ் சந்தி தேவா:
– என்றபடி

இங்கு வானவர் என்பவர் நித்திய சூரி என்றும் படித்து உள்ளேன்

சந்தி என்பது சந்தியா வந்தனம் என்பது உறுதி ஆகிறது சுவாமி

Dasanudasan

on June 21, 2022

எம் பெருமானுடைய திருநாமங்களை மனத்தினால் எண்ணாமல் ஸந்த்யாவந்தனம் முதலிய கர்மாநுஷ்டாநங்களால் உண்டாகப்போகிற பிரயோஜனம் என்ன?

இது சிரத்தை குறிக்கிறது சுவாமி

Dasanudasan

on June 22, 2022

Vyakyanam calls it சிரத்தை. But I am not sure whether it means in that context.          

adiyen do not know about the details of sandhyavandanam and the gods worshipped in it. I only understood even other gods are worshipped. Is worshipping other gods with சிரத்தை OK?.

Is sandhyavandanam an உபாயம் for motcham?. Whether this was running in the mind of பொய்கை ஆழ்வார்?.

adiyen

on June 23, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

Shraddhai adiyen. Not sure if it sounded right in Tamil wording.

SandhyAvandhanam we are doing upAsanA of antharyAmi.

Same applies for yaga yagnyam.

Agnaye Swaha meqns we are wilorshipping antharyAmi of Agni

Same applies to lord Shiva , Brahma & Indran

This is what we have been told

The whole idea of Hinduism is one God

Ekameva Adwitheeyam Brahma

Dasanudasan

on June 23, 2022
SandhyAvandhanam we are doing upAsanA of antharyAmi.From vikraminside

OK.

But how about

Is sandhyavandanam an உபாயம் for motcham?.From SriVaishnava dasan
If one is like jata bharathan does it exempt him to avoid all Nithya Naimittika karmAs?From vikraminside

The reply for the above:  Bhagvatham by Sri. Velukkudi Krishnan swamy, episode #210 : As per Jada Bharadhar Anushtanam will not give liberation.

adiyen

on June 24, 2022

Ok Swamy Super
He is nyAna Yogi
Premi Anna used to say “Going against nature”
Stopping the breath is going against nature
My opinion:
Not just anushtAnam, none of our efforts will give Moksham
NyAnAn Moksha:
AnEka Janma Samsiddha (multiple births)
Sharanagathi also is our indication of self submission
We don’t get liberated immediately after Sharanagathi for Moksham (except for Artha Prapatti)
It has to come from Para VasudEvan
What adiyen feel is , Perumal is liking our commitment
Oru kAryathai eduthunda continuous a seiyaraana nu paakaraar
That’s why Arjun was advised not to switch over
Even for Sandhyavandhanam we should do as a mediator not with the thought of “I doing”
Bhagavath Preethyartham
Bhagavath Kainkarya roopam
Bhagwan SwayamEva KArayathi (He is doing via me)
This is the whole idea of Karma Yogan

So not giving liberation so not doing is not correct approach
AshtAnga yogam starts with Yamam, Niyamam (daily routines)
If samAdhi is temporary state of Union with paramAthmA (Sama + Aadi) , that is not complete liberation either
We don’t see anyone living with body forever

Brahma Vidhya is the only one which stands against all odds of nature. There is something peculiar about it. Adiyen need to explore.
Dhanyosmi

on June 24, 2022
none of our efforts will give MokshamFrom vikraminside

நான்முகன் திருவந்தாதி

Pasuram No 2404

வித்து மிடல்வேண்டுங் கொல்லோ, விடையடர்த்த

பத்தி யுழவன் பழம்புனத்து, – மொய்த்தெழுந்த

கார்மேக மன்ன கருமால் திருமேனி,

நீர்வானம் காட்டும் நிகழ்ந்து.

Meaning

2404 : (நப்பின்னைப் பிராட்டிக்கா) ரிஷபங்களை வலியடக்கினவனும் (தன் விஷயத்தில் சேதநர்கட்கு) பக்தியுண்டாவதற்குத் தானே முயற்சி செய்பவனுமான எம்பெருமானுடைய (ஸம்ஸாரமென்கிற) அநாதியான கேஷத்ரத்திலே (ஸ்வப்ரயத்நமாகிற) விதையை நாம் விதைக்க வேண்டுமோ? (வேண்டா) (நம் முயற்சியின்றியே தானே பகவத் விஷயத்தில் ருசி விளைந்தால் திருநாட்டுக்குச் செல்லுமாளவும் நாம் எப்படி தரித்திருப்ப தென்றால்) திரண்டு கிளர்ந்த காளமேகம் போன்ற கரிய திருமாலினது திருமேனியை நீர்கொண்டெழுந்த மேகமானது எதிரேநின்று காண்பிக்கும் (போலிகண்டு நாம் தரித்திருக்கலாமென்றபடி.)

This pasuram says it is His efforts and it is not our efforts.

Brahma Vidhya is the only one which stands against all odds of nature. There is something peculiar about it. Adiyen need to explore.From vikraminside

Would be interested to get the information on your exploration.

adiyen feel there is no need for a saranagathan to follow the Brahma Vidhyas for getting motcham, it may be redundant. One can learn for knowing the details.

on June 24, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Srimathe Sri Varaha Mahadesikaya Namaha
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
Sri:

Learning about him is the real fun.

Krishna Premi Anna used to say
Two benefits when knowing about him

1. Spending time in good activity
2. Not spending time on bad activities

One naaval pazham is good enough to get moksham

Dasanudasan

on June 24, 2022

Srimath Varaha Mahadesika Swamy prakrutham Andavan said

“Brahma Vidhya stands the test of time. It is beyond the tri GunAs”

My opinion:
So it means of we are depressed or stressed or happy nothing will impact when we are in the path of knowing him.

As he is AparyApthAmruthan Aara Amudhan there is no end in knowing him

It means this whole life time he is with us.

” Redundant ” is when we insist on the purpose of Moksham

While he himself is the purpose nothing is redundant in fact Moksham itself will become redundant

If iruppidam Vaikuntham why ask for seperate Moksham?
Jai Hanuman
Dasanudasan

on June 24, 2022

I have not discouraged from exploring Brahma Vidhya, in fact I have mentioned  to go through and share the details. 

Show more replies
  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel
1 on June 25, 2022

Since it is not showing the replies, taken seperately.

  KAlakshEpam   From vikraminside

KAlakshEpam (Time passing), confuses as to whether it implies anything and need to respond.

on June 25, 2022

Response to ” exploring Brahma Vidhya ” as to why adiyen not considering anything with respect to Perumal as redundant

Dasanudasan

Show more replies
  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel
0 on June 25, 2022

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

Adiyen not focusing on what adiyen considering as myself Bhakthi Yogi, Karma Yogi, NyAna Yogi or SharanAgathan

How Perumal is considering me is important!!!
For Arjuna, Krishna told who he was.

So , there should be some way that Perumal has laid for us and reveals it to us

One of a determinant of SharanAgathan is ” Maha VishwAsam ”

But
Adiyen seem to be jumping branches not steady.

Dasanudasan

  • Liked by
Reply
Cancel