Personnel A out of freewill does harm to personnel BFrom RS

adiyen’s understanding is

Due to the sufferings of B, papa of B will be reduced and no punya will be added to B.

Since A does harm to B, A also will get papa.

adiyen

SriVaishnava dasan

adiyen Ramanuja dasan
Namaskaram RS Swamy

How the Karmic knots are made ?

Lets say a Jeevatma is made to manifest ( birth in material world) for the first time
For doing that Peruman gives Prarabdha karma from the accumulated Sanchita karma to that particular Jeevatma

But without manifestation how did the Jeevatma was made to accumulate Karma

This is like which is first tree or seed
Like wise which is first Manifestation or karma

without answering this question it is not possible to for adiyen to answer ” How karmic knots are made”

Since Devareer has used the dream analogy adiyen also use dream analogy to explain little bit adiyen knows about karma after reading and listening

Devareer told that for minor paapa karma effect one experience low level suffering in dream state

Lets say one ( Arjuna) had a dream as a forest traveller ( Bheema) during which a tiger was trying to kill a deer and the forest traveller Bheema ( dreamed character) who saw that tried to save the deer but unfortunately got his hands inside the jaws of the tiger and got his hands crushed

adiyen want to know

WHO IS THE SUFFERER THE DREAMER (Arjuna) OR THE DREAMED CHARACTER ( Bheema)

Deer or tiger or Bheema or Arjuna

Deer , tiger and Bheema should be the sufferers not Arjuna as Arjuna is lost in sleep and manifested as dream – that is the mind called Arjuna has manifested as tiger deer forest and Bheema

Why deer tiger and Bheema suffer because they are ignorant – that is they are unware of the mind ( Arjuna) who is the source of all that is in the dream and THINK THAT THEY ARE THE DOERS AND THEY ARE SEPARATE ENTITY – THAT IS THEY THINK I AM DOING AND SO THEY FEEL INSECURE AND ACT TO PROTECT THEMSELVES now this IGNORANCE CREATES KARMA

if any one of the dreamed characters some how come to know about the true nature of them ( that is DEHA ATMA VIVEGA GNANAM) , THEY WILL STOP TO BECOME DOERS SO ALL KARMA BURNS OUT INSTANTANEOUSLY AND NO NEW KARMA

now Devareer has to ask yourself the question
AM I A DREAMED CHARACTER IN THIS DREAMED WORLD IN SOMEBODIES DREAM

OR AM I THE DREAMER IN WHICH I AM EXPERIENCING MANY DREAMED CHARACTERS IN MY OWN DREAMED WORLD

ANSWER TO THESE QUESTIONS adiyen think can help Devareer

sorry to use the word I AM – just to make it clear to Devareer

Swamis please forgive if anything is wrong and please correct adiyen

Srimate Raamanujaye NAmaha,

Swamy  “Personnel A out of freewill does harm to personnel B. ‘A’ generated newly a bad karma”  in such circumstances, i believe usually B is not placed in such a situation unless there is some backlog of past bad karma . It may not be directly related to person A. 

This is usually the case, exceptions arise when B is a saintly person/pure devotee , in which case B does not have any karma.

So as other swamis have indicated , in such case ( other than exception) B’s paapa reduces and A generates new karma.

Madan Swamy, your analogy is very deep, while we are in dream difficult to find the answers for the questions you have raised.. are you the dreamer or dreamed? In this Analogy A is dreamer and dreaming B, form B’s case B is dreamer , dreaming A, That is the extent i can comprehend this.

If we actually realize this a dream, how will one be enthusiastic to do his day to day normal worldly duties?

Adiyen

Thirukachidaasanudasan

Namaskaram, Swamys.

Thanks to All, for sharing the insights.

Enpanifan Swamy, Thanks. So, de novo (out of nothing) suffering may be noted in lives of pure devotees – in a way, they are meant to be a lesson for others and hence cannot be taken to explain some of the world happenings.

Your statement: “….. i believe usually B is not placed in such a situation unless there is some backlog of past bad karma . It may not be directly related to person A”

—–because of these observations, it looks sometimes, that there is reason for every thing (negative or suffering) that is currently happening, which is traceable to past bad deeds – Then why judiciary?

I remember having heard the story (sorry for vagueness): A Rishi explains and calms down a king who is stubborn to go ahead taking revenge and Rishi says per karma, his/their time is over and none is responsible for the death of that king’s loved ones.

Also, when every action is accounted for in terms of palan – even what we experience at sleep – say …chased by snake / theives etc is due to low level bad karma (if it is high level bad karma, suffering will happen while in non-sleep state), one can assume similarly that experience of little happiness in sleep could be due to low level punya karma, one wonders why only Major aspects namely, where we are born, approx health conditions and approx death time are attributed to Karma, giving more and more room for free will?

Adiyen
Ramanujadasan.

Srimate Raamnujaye Namaha!

“—–because of these observations, it looks sometimes, that there is reason for every thing (negative or suffering) that is currently happening, which is traceable to past bad deeds – Then why judiciary?”

Swami Not all people believe in the theory of Karma, so they need external force through governance and judiciary. If all were theistic and had Faith in God and scriptures and were submissive to acharyas, then as you say there will be no need for judiciary.. perhaps in Satya yuga it might have been like that.. but perhaps there will always be certain sections of people in all ages who will need them.

“one wonders why only Major aspects namely, where we are born, approx health conditions and approx death time are attributed to Karma, giving more and more room for free will?”

I assume you are asking why not all karma spent in dreams , why experience in reality?  Actually our real life is also a dream in a sense. But even other wise, each soul has certain intensity of desire which can be fulfilled in the real life dream rather than in dream’s dream. Also certain life lessons and experience we need to get can also be better learnt by “actual” experience rather than in dream.

There could be other possible reasons.. but why worry, Sri Krishna is the best friend of all, including Sishupalan. So he will do the best needed for each one of us. We just need to let him do.

Adiyen

Thirukachidaasanudasan

Thanks, Enpanifan Swamy, for those kind clarifications.

(Regarding dream and Karma, my question was from the angle of when experiences during dream itself are attributed to Karma, then it looks Karma is having far reaching consequences on how life unfolds, and could be playing major role in several aspects of one’s life; To quantify contribution of previous karma – induced actions and actions out of free will is perhaps impossible!!! -but there is curiosity to know how life is controlled).

Anyways, as Devareer said, why worry, when our Lord Krishna is there to extend help!

Adiyen
Ramanujadasan.