Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Sri:
How Sathva GuNa nirambiya perumaL is able to Punish for sins? 🤔
Dasanudasan
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My understanding is:
One in satvam gunam is inspired to do something by sense of duty / responsibility
One is rajo gunam is inspired to do something by sense of seeking some achienvement / pleasure
One is tamo gunam is inspired to do something by sense of laziness, illusion.
Considering Perumal is in suddha satvam, whatever He does He must be doing purely out of His sense of duty to parithraanaaya saadhunaam and vinashaya dushkrtaam (protect the saadhus and punish the bad-doers. (or protect the saadhu quality in each person and destroy the bad-doer mentality in each person through approrpiate rewards and punishments).
adiyen dasan.
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Namaskaram Swami,
adiyen would like to answer this question with another question. What does swami comment on the action of a surgeon who performs an operation using a knife, scissors, needles, etc., and causes momentarily pain and discomfort to their patient? Is that a punishment or a treatment? adiyen do not remember the exact quote from our Swami’s upanyasam but hope it answers devareer’s question.
adiyen Ramanuja dasan!
வாளால் அறுத்து சுடினும் மருத்துவன் பால் மாளாத காதல் கொண்ட நோயாளன் போல்
Question seriya purinjukalai yaarum
Sathva GuNam irukkum podhu punishment panna mudiyadhu is my vaadham
That includes momentary pain.
Any pain to anyone is not because of Sathva GuNam. Whether it is short lived or long lasting.
Ambarisha’s sudarshana chakram did not pounce on Brighu Maharishi. Both were sins. Former BhAgavatha latter Bhagavath apachAram.
Both are treatments former “not sathvic In it’s entirety” latter “pure Sathvic”
Kuzhandhaikku sugar coated medicine kudupadhum sathvamey!
Surgery pannuvadhu Sathvam Agadhu though intention is relief.
So when PerumaL is in complete Sathva GuNam he cannot punish. Only Dayai will overpower.
One eye 🌞 one eye 🌙 for Maha Vishnu
That’s why Sri Ram could not punish when sitA piratti was with him.
She is the personification of full dayai. Adhu appadi dhan.
“SAkshAth kshamAm KaruNayAm”
Secondly when I say, “SAthvikam” in connection with SriRam , quoting Thirukkudanthai Andavan “SriRam brought the Anger towards him” written in Sanskrit Ramayana shloka it seems. That’s the interpretation.
It’s not that SriRam was under the influence of anger. Anger was running away afraid of him. It means emotions was under his control not the vice-versa.
Dasanudasan
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Srimate Ramaanujaye Namaha,
Swamy, let me try to add to what other bhagavathas have said.
- Punishment is for body not for soul
- Punishment is by our own actions, not by Perumaal’s intention.
Though i understand this theoretically, it is very difficult to apply in practical scenario, I really struggle to apply in my case.
Usually devotees advice that , we should reflect like “For my sinful actions, reactions would have been much greater..but my Perumaal’s mercy it is reduced many fold” It is not easy to be in this mood, but it helps if we can try this.
Adiyen
Thirukachidaasnudasan
To be frank, nAma samAdhAna paduthikarom. We are in a moral dilemma not to point finger at PerumAL. Not fully convinced if PerumAL has shown mercy on us.
That’s why such intermediate opinion comes up.
“not by Perumaal’s intention.”
Marthuvan means to do GuNam only. Adhan intention. Sharanagathanukku intention onnu kidaiyadhu if that’s the case.
NAma yedhu pannAlum for Bhagavath pelreethyartham
Including if we kill something it will go to Moksham.
Once we say “NarAyaNA” vimukhtha dhukka sukhino bhavanthi/bhavanthi
NarAyaNA ithi samarpayAmi
In him we seek refuge, ideally we should not even realize the concept of pain bodily, mindly, or verbally.
Manasa , vacha, karaneeyam
Innum fulla mercy pannala nu artham. We haven’t become Ramanuja’s Daya Pathram yet
Why? I don’t know. That’s his leela.
Today Adiyen was talking about king Janaka who was unmoved during 🔥 fire.
We are sure to run away not submit ourselves to fire god.
Dasanudasan
Adiyen read both your postings on satva guna and punishment. But could not understand your conclusion. Could you pls explain.
Namaskaram Swamy. I am a disciple of yours. Your upanyasam on “Shri Maha lakshmi – the Unfailing Counsel” explained to me the meaning of Dwaya Manthram.
I have a question I have been meaning to put across to you for a long time: why is mainstream Shri Vaishnavam interpreting Saranagathi as “Surrender” instead of the “Seeking of Refuge”? I have come across your upanyasams where you have interchangeably used both the terms/concepts that are as different as sky and earth but I could still understand your implied/intended meaning in the flow of your speech.
“Ma Namaskuru” in Bhagavd Gita 18:65 means Surrender but in the next Charama Slokam 18:66, it is “Sharanam” and not “Charanam”. It is because of the impossibility of surrendering by extremely proud people (like me) that seeking refuge becomes the only last option.
Another question which I wanted to ask is: in the Vishnu Sahasranama, Yudhisthira asks only 4 questions which I inferred to be on the 4 Purushartha-s. Adhi Sankara has commented that it is 6 questions but that may be due to some other influence. It’s said that Vishnu Sahasranama was brought before Him 3 times when He asked His assistant repeatedly to bring Lalitha Sahasranama.
Please forgive me if I am ignorant but Shri Vaishnavites may have liked and continued His interpretation because the answer to His first question considered Vishnu the one supreme God. (A thorough discussion on Who the supreme God is, is beyond my capability. I have heard Shri Vaishnavites dismissing any argument by saying that Adhi Sankara Himself had chosen Vishnu to be the supreme one. Certainly, all of us don’t want the unfortunate incidents that happened 1000 years back on the question to repeat.)
My interpretation may be coloured by my own background too.
Adhi Sankara’s Question 1 and 2 can be combined to be one question on Artha.
(Kim ekam daivatam loke Kim vaapyekam paraayanam?)
[Who is the one God Who should be sought after?]
His 3rd and 4th question can be combined to be the 2nd question on Kama.
(Stuvantam kam archantah praapnuyuh maanavah subham?)
[By glorifying and worshiping whom can the human reach Auspiciousness]
His 5th question is on Dharma.
(Ko dharmah sarva-dharmaanaam bhavatah paramo matah?)
[What is, in thy opinion, the Greatest Dharma]
Lastly, His 6th question is on Moksha.
(Kim japan muchyate jantuh janma-samsaara bandhanaat?
[By doing japa of what can “creatures” go beyond the bond of worldly life?]
I again thank you from the bottom of my heart for your brilliant discourse on “Shri Maha Lakshmi — the Unfailing Counsel” which is etched on my soul.
Namaskaram Swami. I have a few more questions to ask. Kindly don’t regard them as impudence. My understanding is formed by Gurus and Acharyas like you and so I am only restating what you are thinking in solitude. My questioning is not more than the Iyer boy’s question to SankaraAcharya Swamigal in the Tamil movie “Vedham Puthidhu”. I understand that to point an anamoly is easy but to safeguard tradition amidst great adversity is immensely difficult.
- Shrimathe Narayanaya Namaha in Dwaya Manthiram is interpreted to be Kainkaryam (service) but if it had really been so, wouldn’t the words be Shrimathe Narayanaya Yajni like in Bhagavad Gita 18:65 Ma Yajni. Doesn’t Namaha mean a surrender of ego or obedience to the Will of Shrimann Narayana? I suspect that the tradition of interpreting the 2nd verse as Kainkaryam may have originated from Shri Ramanuja’s usage of Lakshmana’s obedient service to Sita and Rama as an example but over many decades and centuries, the main obedience part was lost and service became the definition — it may also have helped practically by helping to face and forget prararbdha karma. Had Shri Ramanuja used the example of Prahladha, He might have pointed it as obedient devotion and after many centuries now, Bhakthi by Bhajans, Puja, Shravanam etc. would have been the norm after Saranagathi. Wouldn’t Shrimann Narayana offer the person who has made Saranagthi a wide range of options like Bhakthi, Jnana, Artha, Kama etc. rather than only Karma?
- Mainstream Shri Vaishnavam interprets Dhyana as Bhakthi while it is part of the Ashtanga Yoga. No doubt, one merges with the object of meditation eventually and no one can meditate on something one doesn’t like. Shri Vaishnavite scholars interchangeably use the word Dhyana with Bhakthi although they are 2 different Yoga-s. Also, a few Shri Vaishnavites look down upon the other earlier steps in the Ashtanga Yoga claiming that they lead to Siddhi-s (perfections) rather than to Moksha (liberation) but Sage Pathanjali points the way for the Self to get back to the uncorrupted pure state of mind. The process of meditation is critical for Shri Vaishnavaites to understand because they have to meditate on Thiru Manthiram (Om Namo Narayanaya).
- While doing Pranayama during rituals like Tharpanam, Brahmins mutter Gayathri Japam. Pranayama is about the regulation, harmonising and freeing up of blocked air passages, which has to be done as a breathing exercise to relax the body for doing the ritual in the proper way. If one utters a Japam, then one is jumping suddenly to the 6th step of Dharana in Ashtanga Yoga and this creates discord and the practitioner would never be able to reach the subtle layers of consciousness which would make the ritual coarse and crude.
- You have pointed out how Upanishads is the essence of the ocean of Vedic scriptures, how Bhagavad Gita is the essence of Upanishads, how Charama Slokam is the essence of the Bhagavad Gita, thereby millions of verses in the scriptures are reduced to only 2 lines. But then, these 2 lines along with Thiru Manthiram and Dwayam again start expanding in to Yaadhruchikapadi, Mumukshupadi, SriyaPathi Padi, Parandhapadi etc. and there is a ocean of commentaries on these where the seeker could get lost. Is this necessary?
- There is an account of Rama’s transformation just before the arrival of Vishwamithra in Yoga Vashishtam which is not mentioned in Valmiki Ramayana. Rama, like Buddha later, travels all over the kingdom, and witnesses many depressing things, and He gets clarified by Vashishta which later becomes Kashmiri Shaivism. While VishistAdvaitham may not agree with Kashmiri Shaivam, still not reading about Rama’s despondency may leave a gaping hole in the understanding of Rama’s mind and the Ramayana. While it need not be presented like Utthara Kanda is not presented, there could still be a mention of it as a footnote.
- I am not myself 100% well-settled in this issue but I will still ask. There is a strong advisory by Hindu scholars that an individual should chant only 1 manthiram because his or her body resonates according to the frequency of that vibration alone. All of us carry a lot of identities like being Iyengar, Hindu etc. and within each, there are many manthras. If Sandhya Vandhanam has to be done, one must utter Gayathri Manthra. There are many manthras for many different rituals. Esoteric Shri Vaishnavam has picked out Thriu Manthiram but it has also made Dwayam in to a manthiram. Which one should one pick? There is a hard-to-discard fact of Hinduism that manthrams originate from “Om” and a manthiram starting with “Om” is superior than a manthiram that doesn’t have “Om” (Hare Krishnas kindly excuse me for saying this). Dwayam also is supposed to be ideally uttered only once during Saranagathi because it is like BrahmAsthriram which can be effected only once, but people like me are usually neurotic and so we utter again and again. Then there is the utterance of Acharya Dhaniyan (praises on the Acharya), and utterances like BrahmArpanam Asthu, KrishnArpanam Asthu, Kayena Vacha … etc. all of which may severely weaken the principal manthiram if they don’t correctly superimpose on each other or add up. Shri Vaishnavam is blessed with broad-minded Acharyas who permit their Sishyas to take whatever approach that works for them and so this is not really an issue for most people.
Thanks.
Adiyen Madhura Kavi DhAsan
ஆத்தாடி! விஷயம் அதிகம் தெரிய தெரிய மண்ட இம்புட்டு கொடச்சல் எடுக்குமா?!! நல்ல வேல நம்மளுக்கு ஒன்னும் தெரியாது. தத்துவத்த முழுசும் புரிஞ்சிகிட்ட, சலனம் இல்லாத பெரியவங்க சொல்றத கேட்டு பின்பற்றதுல வாழ்க்க சுலபமா இருக்கு; போக போக கொஞ்சம் கொஞ்சமா தெளிவும் கிடைக்குது!
ஆச்சார்யர்களுக்கு நன்றி.
Namaskaram Swami.
Is there an essence within Charama Shloka that could be considered as the Charama Vakya (final phrase) that is a further refinement and which cannot be further subdivided?
Bhagavad Gita 18: 66 Charama Slokam may be split into 4 parts:
- Sarva dharmAn paridhyachya (Abandoning all Dharma-s)
- Maam yekam sharanam vraja (come unto Me alone for shelter)
- Aham twa sarva paapebyo mokshayasyami (I shall relieve you of all sins)
- Ma suchaha (Don’t worry)
Each one of these is itself a spiritual practice. For example, Sanyasis (renunciates) abandon all Dharma-s and that’s it for them. Which one is of paramount importance? Maam Ekam Sharanam Vraja is on the hand of Oppili-Appan. So could it be considered the Charama Vakya?
Which vakya would most represent Sa-Hetu Krupa (Causal grace) and Nir-Hetu Krupa (Causeless Grace)? Which one would the Thenkalai and Vadakalai choose or would they both choose the same vakya but interpret it differently?
Could “Ma Suchaha” be considered Sa-Hetu Krupa if Arjuna at least doesn’t worry to add-on to the problems faced by Krishna in handling the war like a baby keeps crying that distresses the mother, and could it be considered Nir-Hetu Krupa when Krishna simply moves on to the next verse aware that Arjuna will forget many things including His last word about not worrying? Krishna is a Lord of Maya (Illusion) and we may never understand the subtlest transformations of Arjuna that eventually got him in to action. We cannot be caught in Analysis Paralysis which may also be the reason why Krishna would have moved on to close everything.
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Namo Narayanaya
Perumal is beyond gunas as per Vaishnavas philosophy. So he is not Satva guna. He gives punishment because even mortal dad gives punishment for rebellious children, so it’s normal for Perumal to give punishment. Nothing about gunas here.
Punishment given to correct someone is Sattva Guna.
Punishment given by partiality is Rajas Guna.
Punishment given by fun is tamas.
Jai shrirama
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Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,
MadhurKaviDasan Swamy, welcome to the forum. Looks like you are new member and may perhaps be not aware of how to post new separate threads here.
In that case this thread will help https://www.kinchit.org/dharma-sandeha/thread/dharma-sandeha-createposting-a-question/
You can consider to post the questions you have posted above.. one by one sequentially in separate threads.
adiyen
Thirukachidaassanudasan
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Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha Sri: How Sathva GuNa nirambiya perumaL is able to Punish for sins? 🤔 Dasanudasan
Shri Velukkudi Swamigal has explained this in the discourse “Shri Maha Lakshmi – The Unfailing Counsel” If I put it crudely, those who don’t repent, who don’t seek refuge, who don’t do what is to be done, and who do what is not to be done, are left to their devices. But to do even this, one needs to have the capability and this is why Shri Maha Lakshmi is necessary. If one goes to Narayana, both mercy and justice are equally fine with him, but with Lakshmi, only mercy is fine, and so when They are together, the balance tilts towards mercy like 51% mercy to 49% justice and that changes everything. What is interesting is that biologically, human females have only 2 X sex chromosomes while males have 1 X and 1 Y chromosome. According to scientists, most of the human characteristics is a result of X chromosome while Y chromosome is responsible for very few traits like height, man’s sexuality and aggression, which corresponds with the Shri Vaishnavaite interpretation that all the glorious traits belong to Maha Lakshmi but She belongs to Him, and that while Narayana is like the flower, Maha Lakshmi is like the attributes of the flower.
By Lakshmi Katasksham, a person can get cleansed of sin and suffering, which would then place him or her in to virtuous mode.
It is also true that the path of Shri Vaishnavaites need not be the only. For example, some one would rather want to experience punishment like the Stoics rather than repent. He or she may be a self-made person who stands on his or her own feet and so doesn’t want to pray, which he or she regards as the recourse of weaklings. The individual may not be able to change ways on first hearing and may reach understanding after many hearings or by repeated trial-and-error. Krishna says in the Bhagavad Gita that all paths lead to Him. Punishment in hell under Yama is called Purgatory and also could lead to moksha.
Simply put, Sattva guna Perumal doesn’t punish but leaves the person just like a good person may not want to take revenge on an offender but doesn’t go out of the way to help either.
Shri Velukkudi Swamigal has explained this in the discourse “Shri Maha Lakshmi – The Unfailing Counsel”
If you start the message with this sentence, it is ethical to stick strictly to what he actually presented in his discourse.
If you want to thrown your own interpretations based on what you heard in the discourse, then clearly state, “based on the discourse my analysis paralysis is as follows” and then express your thoughts and thesis.
Also, it may help you to read what enpanifan has kindly informed you above.
Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha
Srimathe Sri Varaha Mahadesikaya Namaha
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
Sri:
Swamy
Adiyen Dasanudasan
“Adiyen read both your postings on satva guna and punishment. But could not understand your conclusion. Could you pls explain.”
Swamy, Brigu Maharishi kku Perumal soft a respond panni lesson kathu kuduthar.
For few, the punishments are severe. Like Chakra prayogam etc.
Both are corrections only. One Adiyen think is when PerumaL choose Sathva GuNa mode. Kuzhandhaikku kasappu marundha inippu kalandhu amma kudukura madhiri.
Another, Mahaveera Vaibhavam style/approach.
So when Perumal choose what mode is a question mark?
Coming to us, we realizing pain is also due to his mode of approach Adiyen beleive. We all are intertwined in ShareerAthma bandham. At this juncture, some mahAn able to see through all pain & pleasure. While some still feel the materialistic swings.
Innum simplea solla pona, nAma anubhavikkardhey Perumaloda anugrathirkku yetradhu madhiri dhAn nu adiyenoda understanding.
Sometimes, enna pannalum, Anga pradhakshinam panninAlum, ezhu malayAn dharisanam kidaikkalai
Aana ID card kondu poga marandhAlum, avar edhAvadhu panni dharisanam kuduthiduraar
Idhula adiyenoda input enna irukku nu puriyalai?
Two times adiyen wanted to get seva but Swamy chose to react one way and react another way on two different occasions
When Adiyen did not get dharisanam
Sendru ser thiruvenkata mAmalai
Ondrumey thozha Nam vinai oyumey
Sorry if Adiyen made any BIG WORDS
Please correct me if Adiyen is wrong
Apologies in advance Swamy
Kshamikkanum
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
Dasanudasan
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