Forms at other andams and vaikuntam

Updated on August 29, 2020 in General
14 on August 28, 2020

Namaskaram.

I have been thinking of posting this query. After the thread on gajendra moksham, I thought this is the time to put up the query.

I was curious to know about the life and other details in Vaikundam. I glanced through some texts and also listened to Velukkudi swamy’s upanyasam on Vaikunda Gadya. The details I got is that the living beings, plants, animals, description of place etc., are very similar to that on earth. The Grandeur, elegance, tranquility etc., were described. Lord Narayanan is also described in human form.

Generally, Lord Narayanan is stated to be with / without form. Leela vibhudhi has innumerable atmas with various forms of living beings. I am a bit unable to accept the forms at other places and at Vaikuntam similar to those on earth. How does atmas from other andams see Vaikuntam and Lord Narayanan. Will they see / appear in different forms familiar to those atmas.

adiyen

 
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9 on August 28, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,

Swamy can you please rephrase or clarify your question

“How does aatmas from other andams see Vaikuntam and Lord Narayanan. Will they see/ appear in different forms familiar to those aatmas.”

Which aatmas are you referring to? Only Liberated aatmas will go there.

Probably you are assuming that life in other andams is different from ours , so if we think plants and animals  and human beings exist in vaikunta , what will be the understanding/perspective of aatmas who are living in other andams and trying to get liberated like us. is it that the question? 

So is the assumption that life forms  in other andams are different correct?

Also in Bhagavat Geeta chapter 15 text 1 material world is described as 

“The Supreme Personality of Godhead said: It is said that there is an imperishable banyan tree that has its roots upward and its branches down and whose leaves are the Vedic hymns. One who knows this tree is the knower of the Vedas.”

Material world is described via a metaphor of reflected Banyan tree. The inverted banyan tree can be seen only in a reflection in a lake. So we can conclude that material  world is a reflection of spiritual world. So living forms will be similar, but the consciousness is inverted.. here we think about me and mine and In vaikunta everybody thinks about Perumaal and other devotees.

The example given here in the above sloka is applicable to entire material world which includes all andams..

Honestly speaking I am also not clear of the details that you have raised above, but in principle it is clear. 

May be we can wait for Velukkudi swami and  Bhagavatas to throw in more light and clarity in this topic.

Adiyen

 

 

on August 28, 2020

Enpanifan swamy,

Namaskaram.

  1. “Which aatmas are you referring to? Only Liberated aatmas will go there.”

             Yes. I meant Liberated aatmas only w.r.to vaikuntam.

  1. “is it that the question?”

            My query is on forms of innumerable atmaas and Lord Narayanan & life at various andams and vaikuntam.

  1. “So is the assumption that life forms in other andams are different correct?”

            The chance that life forms are different is very high, since innumerable atmaas exist. I do not want to presume.

  1. “Bhagavat Geeta chapter 15 text 1”

    I have come across inverted banyan tree while reading / listening to Gita. I think it is really a difficult concept to understand. But I could not understand how it describes life forms of atmaas in Leela vibudhi and related to my query.

adiyen

on August 28, 2020

In the above, I mean forms taken by atmaas and not form of atmaas itself.

adiyen

on August 29, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,

Swamy in the reflected banayan tree example.. both the original tree and the reflection have similar shaped trees and branches..but one is standing upright and other is inverted..
Similarly..life forms may be of similar forms in spiritual world and material world but consciousness alone is inverted..me and mine vs Perumaal and His devotees..
This is my understanding..if it not correct would be happy to get corrected.
Adiyen

P.S. Though the forms are similar in spirtual world..they are made of aprakutha instead of prakurthi dravyams..and unless we get out of me and mine conception we cannot get out of prakruthi dravyams.

on August 29, 2020

enpanifan swamy,

Thank you for your response.

I am not competent enough to provide authenticated details. I referred to few websites on this sloka. The information I got is that

“It generally indicate the continuous cycle of life and death.”

The point mentioned on life form is

“The trunk and branches which are extending downwards (adhaḥ-śhākham) encompass all the life-forms from different abodes of the material realm.”

It states “encompass all the life forms”. It does not mentioned about the form of life either in material world or spiritual world.

I am really ignorant on this. I go by my understanding of the subject.

adiyen

on August 29, 2020

Swamy, the details that you have quoted are also appropriate to the sloka..focus on the aspect of inverted tree..where will we see an inverted tree..it is only in a reflection of an actual tree..will the form of actual tree and reflected tree be similar?
Adiyen

on August 29, 2020

Swamy,

Thank you for your efforts.

I am unable to find any analogy w.r.to. my query on banyan tree concept, may be because of my limited knowledge in the very intricacy details of this sloka. Is there any reference on the explanation on this sloka w.r.to my query. I believe this sloka is about life and cycle of births. I am of the opinion that one should go with explicit clarification from the scriptures rather than analogy or implicit details.

Kindly excuse me, if you feel I am wrong.

adiyen

on August 29, 2020

அடியேன் நமஸ்காரம்
தொண்டர் அடி பொடி ஆழ்வார் கூறியது மாதிரி அச்சுவை பெரினும் வேண்டேன் எல்லாம் பூலோக வைகுந்தமான ஸ்ரீரங்கம் தான் நமக்கு என்றார்
திருமங்கைஆழ்வார் அதே கருத்தை முயல் இருக்க காக்கை பின் ஏன் செல்ல வேண்டும் ( சிறிய திருமடல்)என்கிறார்,அர்ச்சையே உயர்வானது என்கிறார்,முக்தாத்மாக்களான மற்றும் அதிகாரிகளான ராமானுஜர் ,மணவாள மாமுநிகள் மற்றும் ஒரு சிலருக்கே கைவசம் ஆகக்கூடியது வைகுந்த பிராப்தி,ஆகவே அதை பற்றிய விசாரத்தை அதிகாரிகள் செய்யட்டும்

வேளுக்குடி சுவாமிகள் என் பனியில் கூறியது போல் 1849 ல் பெருமானிடம் பழகுவதில் மஹான்களும் நாமும் ,அதில் ஆத்ம சாக்ஷாத்காரம் பெற்ற மஹநீயர்கள் பெருமாளை கானாது தவிக்கிறார்கள் ( அதற்கான உவமை எஜமானும் காவல்காரர் உறக்கம் மிக அருமை)

நாம் முதலில் ஆத்ம சாக்ஷாத்காரம் பெற விழைவோம்,அதுவே இந்த ஜன்மாவில் நடக்குமா தெரியவில்லை,பகவத்கீதை 7-19
பஹூனாம் ஜன்மனாமந்தே க்ஞானவான் மாம் ப்ரபத்யதே வாஸூதேவ ஸர்வமிதி ஸ மஹாத்மா ஸுதுர்லப
For interest sake curiosity sake and academic sake we can seek clarification however Ramanujacharya already booked vaikundam for all human beings,now our duty to surrender to ramanuja padma padam like வண்டு.(இராமானுச நூற்றந்தாதி 100 வது பாசுரம்)
அடியேனின் கருத்து தவறாக இருந்தால் க்ஷமிக்க பிராத்திக்கிறேன்
அடியேன் தாசன்
Note:-
Enpanifan சுவாமி அந்த மரத்தை ஆல மரம் என்கிறார் அது அரச மரம் (அஸ்வத்தமரம்)

on August 29, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Vellukudidasan swamy, completely agree with your view point that we should try for aatma sakshatkaaram first before discussing these deeper topics.

I have a related query, for a devotee or one in bhakti or saranagati maaragam, this gradual realization of aatma sakshaatkaaram and then Bhagawaan realization does not happen to be happening sequentially, rather it appears to be both in parallel tracks. is it not? 

Also regarding Ashvatamm tree , yes it can be translated to Peepal tree, but i am not sure why various aacharayas from all 4 sampradayas have translated it to Banyan tree.. please check this link ( This link has commentary as per Sri Sampradaya, Brahama  Sampradaya, Rudra Sampradaya and Kumara sampradaya)

https://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-15-01.html

Adiyen

on August 29, 2020

Namaskaram.

I think, curiosity on nature / creator lead one to spiritual interest. Even after entering into spiritual field there is nothing wrong in wanting to know about the nature. It can be noted that my query is also on the form of Lord Narayanan.

I know pretty well that this query will be difficult to answer. But if some one comes out with some authenticated detail, it will be helpful to everyone, not only to myself. I strongly believe one should not shut the door by simply pointing out that one need to work on aatma sakshaatkaaram. If our purvacharyas, alwars etc., were limited themselves to aatma sakshaatkaaram, then we would not got so many scriptures. (I have taken aatma sakshaatkaaram as self realisation)

adiyen

 

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3 on August 29, 2020

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Swamy,Thanks for giving a honest feedback.

OK I found one reference online. The point being discussed is in 2nd paragraph.

https://prabhupadabooks.com/d.php?qg=2866

Adiyen

on August 29, 2020

Swamy,

I am sorry, I could not see the point being discussed in the link.

adiyen

on August 29, 2020

Srimathe Ramanujaye namaha ,
Swamy, the statements below has been taken from above link and they conclude that material world what we see is a reflection of spirtual world..like reflection of a tree appearing inverted.
So what ever forms of life we see here is but a reflection of forms that exist in spirtual world.

“In the material world these spiritual varieties are merely reflected,”
“This world is simply a reflection. If in the reality there is nothing like that, how can it be reflected here? So everything is there in the spiritual world.”
“Here the material world is described as a tree whose roots are upwards and branches are below. We have experience of a tree whose roots are upward: if one stands on the bank of a river or any reservoir of water, he can see that the trees reflected in the water are upside down. The branches go downward and the roots upward. Similarly, this material world is a reflection of the spiritual world. The material world is but a shadow of reality. ”
Adiyen

on August 29, 2020

enpani swamy,

1. “In the material world these spiritual varieties are merely reflected,”

    The details on “spiritual varieties” is not defined properly. Does not appear to be in the present context.

2. “This world is simply a reflection”

       If we read the context before this, it talks about love and not on forms.

3. “Here the material world is described”

     This point is already discussed, wherein no reference on forms are explicitly mentioned.

      I do not want to accept wrongly. If I accept wrongly and if others feel it to be incorrect, it will be embarrassing. I do not want such a situation.

      I suggest this topic can be closed. I do not want to burden you. Also, it appears some members do not like this thread.

      Thanks for your co-operation.

adiyen

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