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Debates of Acharyas against Atheism

Updated on January 20, 2018 in Acharyas
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5 on January 10, 2018

Namaskaarams to all,

Atheism is not a challenge only in this modern age but was a very big challenge in Vedantic times also. Charvakas were materialists and atheists but our Acharyas of all traditions beautifully debated and thrown them away.

Collection of those debates may help even today to fight Atheists. Atheists are big challenge. Such gathered points may be spread among population through books, speeches, casual talks etc to show Atheism is useless.

Everyone is disciplined only because of fear that God is witnessing all our acts. As Katopanishad says, “Even sun is shining, wind blows…………because of the fear on God.” If people are made to believe there is no one to witness us, the crime rates in the society will increase further.

We may have many friends who may take Atheism very lightly. To them, we can speak about debates of our Acharyas to prove that Atheism is illogical and to make strong believers of God.

If this thread can be used to gather those debates of Acharyas, it will be helpful to make ourselves strong in Theism.

If admin feels this thread is irrelevant, please feel free to delete and kindly forgive Adiyen.

Let Adiyen give some points which I read from a work named Yukti Mallika of Vadiraja Theerthar.

Acharya analyzes two Pramanas of the Atheists of those times.

1. They believe only in Prathyaksha Pramana (direct perception). They don’t believe in Anumana Pramana (inference) or Sabdha Pramana (verbal testimony).

To give a brief on Pramanas,

Prathyaksha – Seeing directly and believing; If we see fire, we believe in fire.

Anumana – Inference; If we see smoke on a hill, we infer there is fire, though we don’t see fire directly.

Sabdha – Vedas or Sruti spread generations after generations verbally (sounds) by various Rishis and Acharyas.

2. Charvakas don’t believe in anything beyond body or materials.

Below is how these Pramanas are debated in the Grantha and Atheism was proved to be utter failure theory. Acharya says,

1. If people believe only in Pratyaksha, they have to simply see anything and keep quiet. If they start debating, then it’s based on Anumana and hence Atheists are forced to accept Anumana.

Further, does these Atheists employ a language or not? to spread their beliefs. If they do so, then they are forced to accept Sabdha also.

So, an Atheist with an illogical theory can only see something and keep quiet. If he try to do Propaganda of Atheism, then Atheism is a failure because of their own Pramanas.

2. Any material formed by mere combination of five elements or Pancha Boodhas (Air, Water, Fire, Earth and Sky) cannot produce consciousness. This is Prathyaksha (directly understood) as we see difference between living things and non-living things in this world. So, there is something beyond body and materials. Hence, Atheism is a failure theory.

In this way, Atheism was effortlessly dis-proved. Though Charvakam was an organized philosophy and today’s Atheism is unorganized and useless, still those debates of Acharyas are still valid.

If we can collect such debates and use where ever possible, theists can become more strong about their beliefs and people confused by atheists may also be recovered to certain extent.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan Pranesh

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Srinivasan Pranesh 0 on January 10, 2018

Few months back, Adiyen watched a TV show. An atheist on one side and learned theist on another side. Atheist went on speaking on their Pramanas and asked some questions to the theist. Though the theist was a learned person, he couldn’t satisfactorily answer. May also be due to TV management pressure. Adiyen don’t know.

But, all debates of theists are mainly based on Vedas or Sabdha Pramana, while atheists simply say they don’t believe in Vedas. Then, theists can’t address it further. But, atheists should understand that, if they don’t believe in Vedas, then Atheism itself is shaken at foundation.

So, we shall essentially learn all debates of our Acharyas against Atheism.

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Ram 1 on January 11, 2018

I don’t blame the atheists.

Some people don’t see the world we do.Some people haven’t taken birth in India,and in this age,so they might not have seen the world we do,and think the way we do.They might not have  had Gurus,which we have.Some people don’t really see a need for a creator in this world.They are content with the way they lead their lives,and they try to become the best they could.I am not talking about atheists,who like,hate God,or say God is not there,but there are some people who are really confused.They want to believe in God,but as time rolls by,they sometimes see how they can live a life without believing in God.

Those kind of confused people,they aren’t dangerous,this is what I feel.It would take an immense amount of time,and patience to convince an atheist to be a theist.We should explain him the principle philosophies of our Sanatana Dharma,properly.And that can be done by only a Guru.A proper Guru,who meets a proper sishya.We can’t force them with fear,because that is a cowardly thing to do,and the atheist will further be disgusted with the concept of religion.

I may be wrong,and I am not learned enough to confidently speak the truth,but this is what I feel.

I am not talking about atheists who hate Gods,or mock them,or do all sort of illogical things to prove their point.But,if we want to address a humble atheist,who will be confused,and doesn’t totally reject the concept of God,I think we should humbly,and patiently,yet correctly,teach him the Core values of our Sanatana Dharma.I think,if we could give him a copy of The Bhagavad Gita,and if the atheist is sincere enough,He might change.

I think we should not think of atheism as a problem,but just as a challenge for us,to prove why or how we are right.If we cannot do that,then I think we should not bother with those people,and try to do our duty,to the utmost perfection as possible.

Please forgive me,if I have written something wrong,due to my beliefs.Please feel free to correct them,and help me too.

Shriram

Srinivasan Pranesh on January 11, 2018

Agreed Swamy.

Atheists are not problem as such or threat. But, their attempts to spread Atheism is a threat. People also get attracted towards negatives very quickly.

Adiyen with my colleagues keep discussing about our scriptures like Gita during free time after lunch. There is an atheist who also join the talks uninvited. We don’t want to forcefully avoid anyone while talking. Adiyen think, “let him also listen and the Lord may bring a change in Him”.

For each statement we discuss from scriptures, he used to give a counter, trying to disprove God and scriptures. In fact, he is also not an Atheist. But, quickly travelling in that direction, biased towards Atheism.

Now, he as a person is not threat for Theists. But, what about the beginners in the group, interested in scriptures. They get confused and keep blinking whether to believe in scriptures or not.

So, Adiyen often result in debating with him. When Adiyen use Acharya Pramanas, he keeps quiet as he don’t have points to debate about Acharya Vadas. Then, our group will peacefully keep discussing scriptures.

Sometimes, Adiyen also used Nyaya Sutras and Nyaya Kusumanjali of Udayanacharya, which out and out try to prove existence of God through syllogical reasoning, apart from Vedanta.

This is how the problem and threat comes.

Our Acharyas also debated against such Atheists not just to defeat Atheists but to stop “conversion” of common men with one leg towards Atheism and one leg towards Theism into complete Atheism.

Hinduism has threat from all directions. From Atheism and other religions as well. All debates in favour of Veda-Vedanta are already given by our Acharyas. We only have to learn them all and do prayoga where necessary. Brahma Sutras, beautifully debates all philosophies. Why should Badarayanar do this? To make us strong in Vedantic thoughts and to kick faulty Philosophies.

So, we should be equipped to handle this in future, if we wish to do Pracharam of Hinduism which is Theism.

Again, this is Adiyen’s personal view. Kindly correct if Devarir feel it is wrong.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

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Srinivasan Pranesh 0 on January 12, 2018

Shri Velukkudi Swamigalin Porpadhangalukku Aneka Koti Namaskarams

Awaiting the seminar Devarir mentioned in today’s Enpani audio with pleasure.

Daasanu Daasan

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Chowkidhar KongilPiratti 0 on January 20, 2018

Sri Ramanuja Muneya Namaha,

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruve Namaha,

Asmadh Sarva Gurubyo Namaha,

 

Dear All Aasthikas,

 

In addtion to Swami’s Enpani, Sri Velukkudi Swami in an upanyasam has said about Acharya Swami KoorathAzhwan (Swami Ramanujar Shishar and one of the 74 Simahasapathi Acharya) statement regarding this topic.

So, adiyen would like to share this with Acharya Krupai and Swami’s Anugraham.

 

Acharya Swami KoorthathAzhwan has said 10 statements for ALL AASTHIKAS (Who believe in ParamAthma Sriman NarayanAn Krupai) to FOLLOW. One of the 10 statements as below:

 

 

******************************

” DHUSTANAI KANDAAL DHOORA VILAGU, MUDINDHAL NANMAI SEI”

துஷ்டனை கண்டால் தூர விலகு , முடிந்தால் நன்மை செய் .

” STAY AWAY FROM BAD COMPANY, DO GOOD TO THEM IF POSSIBLE”

******************************

 

A)

Explanation of 1st sentence “துஷ்டனை கண்டால் தூர விலகு (STAY AWAY FROM BAD COMPANY)” from Acharya Swami Manavaala Maamunigal SriSookthi “Upadesa Rathna Maalai“.

Slokam 68:

nAththikarum naRkalaiyin nanneRi sEr Aththikarum Aththika-nAththikarumAm ivarai ;

Orththu nenjE munnavarum pinnavarum mUrkkar ena vittu naduch chonnavarai nALum thodar.

 

“O’ my Mind, may you critically evaluate the ways of (1) The non-believers (nAthikas) of Shastras, (2) The Believers (Athikas) in the path shown by Shastras, (3) the Athika-nAthikas who keep flipflopping between believing and non-beleiving Shastras. May you (mind) GET RID (Disassociate) of the company of the first (1) and the thrid (3) and follow the path of the second (2) one AT ALL TIMES.

 

 

nAththikarum – The nAsthikas (type1),

Aththikarum –and the Asthikas (type2)

sEr – being in

nal – good

neRi – path

nal kalaiyin – as what is said in good Shasthram,

Aththika-nAththikarum – and the Asthika-nAsthikas (type3)

Am ivarai – among these groups,

nenjE – Oh mind!

Orththu – think through

vittu – and disassociate from

munnavarum – the first-mentioned nAsthikas

pinnavarum – and the last-mentioned Asthika-nAsthikas

mUrkkar ena – saying that they are having foolishness,

nALum – and always

thodar – follow

naduch chonnavarai – the Asthikas mentioned in the middle (type2).

****************************************

 

The above is the “SURFACE” level meaning of Slokam 68 referenced from SriVaishna books/websites which is easy access for all of us. For detailed “MANTLE” meaning and “CORE (MOOLA)” IN-Depth meaning, please refer to Swami’s Pravachanams/Kalakshepams based on PoorvAcharyas teachings.

[Like how Earth has “CORE, MANTLE and CRUST (Surface)”, the ‘Surface’ gets shaken if ‘Mantle’ shakes, and ‘Mantle’ inturn is shaken if the Core is shaken. So, if we know the CORE meaning (MOOLA Artham), then we will not be shaken at all. So, let’s learn the CORE meaning from Swamis Pravachanams &/or attend a Kalakshepam].

*********************************************

 

type 1) Who is a nAthika:

* Doesn’t believe or Pray BhagvAn at all (believes in his own effort).

* Pray BhagavAn secretly for own benefits, but talk bad about BhagavAn outside,

* Use foul mouth speeches &/or physical abuse, if their desires are obstructed by anyone either by Athikas or by another nAthika itself.

* Bad habits like drinking, smoking, non-veg,

* Believes in Rajasik poojas like animal scarifice / Billi Soonyam for self desires and cause harm to others

* Spreads rumours of others and Athikas based on own thought process,

* Keeps countering Aathikas novel words and try to defame their reputation.

……..etc……

 

type 2) Who is a Aathika:

One who does all these 7 things Daily,

 

1) Therindhu (தெரிந்து ):

DAILY Keeps thinking: BhagvAn kalyana Gunanagal Manadhaal Ninaithudhal

 

2) Yezhudhi (எழுதி) :

DAILY Keeps Writing: Ninaitha Gunangalai, Namakku Nanna Purivadharkku mattum yezhudhi yezhudhi Paarthu Kolthal

 

3) Vaasitthu (வாசித்து ):

DAILY Keeps reading: Munnorgal BhagavAnai Patthi Yezhudhina Granthathai Paditthu paarthal, eitehr read alnone or read along with family members or others. Liek reading out audibly BhagavAt Puranam/Srimad Ramayanam etc… at home.

 

4) Kaettu (கேட்டு) :

DAILY Keeps Listening: Nallar Upadesangalai Kaadhaala Kaettu Koldhal (Keeps listening to Mahans, Acharyas, Satvika Gurus Upadesams and act accordingly)

 

5) Vanangi (வணங்கி):

DAILY Shows Gratitude by MIND (Manam): BhagavAnai Manadhal Vanangudhal

 

6) Vazhipattu (வழிபட்டு):

DAILY Shows Gratitude by HANDS (Mei): BhagavAnai Kaigalaal Vanangudhal

 

7) Poositthu (பூசித்து))

DAILY Shows Gratitude by SPEECH (Mozhi): BhagavAnai Vaayara paaduthal.

 

தெரிந்து எழுதி வாசித்து கேட்டு வணங்கி வழிபட்டு பூசித்து)

So, All PoorvAcharyas and Santrogals life like Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami, itself is a Shastram for us to follow and Cherish with for Athma UjjivanAm.

 

 

type 3) Who is a Aathika-nAthika:

* Don’t have any bad habits like drinking, smoking, non-veg at all, But don’t believe in BhagvAn, since not sure.

* Prays BhagavAn, but don’t follow “Ahimsai” all times. Like, only when going to temple or any special rituals, avoids non-veg, drinking, smoking etc…rest of the time, accumulates paapa karmas.

* Prays BhagavAn daily, go to temples sincerly etc..but uses foul mouth speeches to family members/ others, or think bad about one in mind, but speak very nicly outside.

* …………etc…….

The type1) are easy to identfy and can be avoided.

The type3) are the MOST DANGEROUS, since identifying them is a difficult task. They can be anyone within our family or in offcie or outside or anyone in temples or in any mathams etc…

Really, it is a tough life in this Samsaram for all Bhaktas who want to be in type2) Athikas, but possible, if we stick to our DAILY Acharam, DAILY Anushtanam, Nithya Aaradhanai (Perumal-Thayar poojai) with absolute humility, Anytime GuruParamparai Anusandhanam, Acharya Dyanam etc…which automtically protects/avoids such situations.

*****************************

 

B)

Explanation of 2nd sentence “முடிந்தால் நன்மை செய் (DO GOOD TO THEM IF POSSIBLE) ” from GuruParampari (PoorvAcharyas Life History)

Follow the type2) by ourselves first and then Explain in simple way and teach type1 & type3 about “Sathvika Parihareetham” with our Yatha Shakthi (what ever Satvika Capacity we possess)

* Fundementals of Sanatana Dharmam: Thani manitha Ozhukkam, Panbhu, Unmai Paesuthal, Thiruda koodadhu, Aduthavanga Porul mela Aasai pada koodadhu etc…….

* Endha udal Kuduthadhu Perumal. Athai avarukkaga Upayogikkanum. Naasthigam Paesa koodathu. (Perumal created this body, so we cannot use the same body to talk against HIM).

* Our behaviour should match all three things, Mind (Manam), Speech (Mozhi) & Bodily Actions (Mei). If we think bad in Mind, by express pleasntly by Speech, then BhagvAn Sriman NarayanAn make a Note of it from inside as Antharyamai. So we should match all three as much as possible by following the fundementals of Sanatana Dharmam wuth Acharya Krupai

******************************

 

However, Acharyas go ONE_STEP_AHEAD and do their “முடிந்தால் நன்மை செய் (DO GOOD TO THEM IF POSSIBLE) in an Exmplary way

Reference:

Enpani # 575 “Speciality of Gurus Over BhagavAn” &

Enpani # 669 “How to Forgive”

Though we (type 1 or type 3, or even type 2) don’t have Thagudhi to go to Moksham looking at our Anaadhi Kala paapams, ACHARYAS, IF THEY WISH CAN GIVE MOKSHAM ‘SRIVAIKUNTA PRAAPTHI’ TO ANYONE WITHOUT THEIR OWN CONSENT, LET THEM BE IN ANY SHAREERAM ANIMAL BODY OR HUMAN BODY OR PLANT BODY ETC…THIS IS BEACUSE OF THEIR ‘NIRHEDHUKAI KRUPAI (CAUSELESS MERCY). There are many incidences in GuruParampari.

One such example, as Swami quoted in Enpani 669, as one of the nAsthika (Naalooran) who was responsbile for KoorthAzhwan eyes loss, got Moksham, since Acharay KoorthAzhwan asked Moksham for him as well, otherwise, Perumal’s KInkarargal YamaRaja will take them to Naragam and deal with them.

This shows the Karunai Ullam of Acharya KoorathAzhvan முடிந்தால் நன்மை செய் (DO GOOD TO THEM IF POSSIBLE) .

************************************************************

 

Below is purely adiyens understanding from Upanyasams,

Sri Velukkudi Krishna Swami Adiyenai Shamikka Prarthikkiraen, if adiyen told anything diffferent from Devareer ThiruUllam.

 

“Every Athikas (Bhaktas) to develop two things,

  1. a) “Thappa Panna Vidaama, nAthiganai Thadukka Vaendum with our Yatha Shakthi” and make the nAthika an Athika for their own benefit,
  2. b) and develop Karunai Ullam and “request Acharyas to give Moksham for nAsthikas”,

so Thayar-Perumal can get their Sotthu ‘Athma’, other wise, nAhtikas paapa karmas will NOT get reduced and they will also spoil Sanatana Dharmam in this Samsaram and make Asthikas life difficult”.

*********************************************************

Overall,

******************************

” DHUSTANAI KANDAAL DHOORA VILAGU, MUDINDHAL NANMAI SEI”

துஷ்டனை கண்டால் தூர விலகு , முடிந்தால் நன்மை செய் .

” STAY AWAY FROM BAD COMPANY, DO GOOD TO THEM IF POSSIBLE”

******************************

Again, Sri Velukkudi Krishna Swami adiyenai Shamikka Prarthikkiraen, if adiyen told anything diffferent from Devareer ThiruUllam.

**********************************************************

 

Naayagi Bhaavam Seidheno ‘NAM-MANGAI’ Alwargal Polaey.

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Acharya Swami Koorath Azhwan Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Thayar-Perumal-Alwar-EmperumanaAr-Jeeyar-Acharyar Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Thannnudaya Karunaiyai Maraithu Vaithu, Jeevas Karmasai vaitthu Leelai Puriyum SriKrishna BhagvAn ki Jai,

Andal (Godha Nachiyar) Thiruvadigalaey Sharanam,

Alarmel Mangai Thayar samedha, Thirumalai Srinivasa Perumal ki Jai,

Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu

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