Can Mahalakshmi that give moksham or not?

Updated on August 26, 2017 in Goddess
20 on August 14, 2017

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

Can Mahalakshmi thayar have power to give moksham or not?

Adiyen and my thengalai colleague having debate. We both lost our temper at a point.

We both follow Velukkudi Krishnan Swami

We need an answer. The question is not “has thaayar given moksham?” but “does she have power to give moksham?” or just recommender ?

We both are watching this thread. He only asked me to ask you.

Adiyen not sure how she cannot have powers when she is equalling para brahmam as well as being devotee to him. Para brahma swaroopini is false?

Dasanudasan

 
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0 on August 15, 2017

Admins please correct question title “Can Mahalakshmi thayar give moksham or not”?

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0 on August 15, 2017

He gave example of jatayu moksham where thayar was not around when Rama gave moksham

Adiyen took two examples:
Sabari moksha sAkshi bhuthA: whete Rama was just a witness and she went by AchAryA’s grace

Question: Can Acharya give moksha then everybody becomes para brahmam?
My answer : Guru sAkshAth para brahma tasmai Sri guravEy namaha

2nd example:
Vamana being brahmachAri hid (hide) Mahalakshmi in vakshasthalam by towel. So Perumal was not without makalakshmi at any point in time even while being brahmachAri

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0 on August 15, 2017

My colleague just gave me example
Mahalakshmi thayar = Eka ooni sheshatvam
She is everything except supreme

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14 on August 15, 2017

Aneka Koti Namaskarams Swami

Here is Adiyen’s understanding. Thayaar should definitely have powers to give Moksham. She is integral with Perumal. However, she does not directly do it and always keep recommending to Perumal.

Granting Moksham is done by Perumal.

Even in case of Bagavad Ramanujar, Perumal says, “Whoever you point out as eligible candidate for Moksha will be granted Moksha”. But, granter is always Perumal.

An old lady requested Moksha to Perumal. Perumal said, bring written qualification letter from Bagavad Ramanujar. She did and got Moksha.

So, Acharyan and Thayaar recommends Moksha but Perumal alone grants it.

In our home, say we need 100 Rs. We don’t go to father directly. We request to our mother. Mother recommends and father gives. If mother directly takes this 100 from father’s pocket and give us, father will not stop. But, still she makes the father give.

Hence, Mahalakshmi Thayaar has power to grant Moksha but she always does it through Perumal is Adiyen’s understanding. She never try to bypass Perumal because of her due respect and love towards Him.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanam.

on August 15, 2017

Sri:
Yes same understanding as Vadakalai adiyen guess. She has powers but doesn’t bypass.

“She is integral with Perumal. However, she does not directly do it and always keep recommending to Perumal.

Hence, Mahalakshmi Thayaar has power to grant Moksha but she always does it through Perumal ”

True. We need pramAnam not just understanding.

Sita Devi says to Ravana ” I can say bhasma bhasmarhatehacha” something like this. I can burn you to ashes but it won’t be good to SriRam’s credibility.

Meaning she has equal powers.

Dasanudasan

on August 15, 2017

Danyosmi Swamy

on August 15, 2017

Here is Adiyen’s Aviprayam. I could not give Pramanas.

Power of Samharam and Power of granting Moksham can be equated? I am not sure.

At least I am not aware of any Pramana where Lordess Herself granted Moksha. But, we can give Pramanas that Thayaar recommended Moksham.

Mine is Dvaita Philosophy in Vaishnavism. As per Shri Madhvacharyar, Lord Sriman Narayana alone is Sarva Swatantra and rest all are dependent on Him including Thayaar. That’s the reason why he shows two fingers, one representing Swatantra Tattvam and other one Aswathantra Tattvam. However, Thaayar is considered Nithya Muktai and ever liberated naturally like Lord Sriman Narayana. She is considered Pradana Kainkaryai to Lord. Her enjoyment is in doing Kainkaryams to Him.

However, I don’t want to bring in other Sampardayam inside too much and pollute the group. Adiyen just stated what I understood per Sri Vaishnavam.

If something is not correct, request authenticated Srivaishnavas like Swami to correct Adiyen.

Daasanu Daasan Srinivasan Pranesh

on August 15, 2017

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

That’s fine madhwa siddhantha is duality. There can be near perfect division.

“Sarvam khalvidam brahma”
So adiyen can argue that we cannot bring inequality to parabrahmam who himself is self manifested into everything. Dhosham sambhavikkum.

Thayar not sure Nithya mukthAthma. She gives mukhthi she doesn’t require to be a mukhthAthma or nithyAthmA. She is beyond ananthAzhwan and periya thiruvadi.

“Ahalihillen endru uraiyum alarmel Mangai urai mArbhan”

She never gets seperated from his vakshasthalam heart/chest.

Even during vAmanA avathAram she was hidden in chest. PerumAl being a brahmalAchari tried to hide his wife!

Do we mix with emperumAn in moksham ?
No. She mixes.

Mahalakshmi is seshi agreed. She serves lord no doubt about it. But when it comes to us she is equally powerful as Perumal and absolute supreme.

So she is not just an angam (part) like us as said in vEda.(Shareeram vs Shareeree)

She is ayOnijai. Never born through human.

She is equally eternal as perumAl.

Most importantly ,She has given Chiranjeevi title to hanumAn.

Something we are discarding.

In one pasuram it is said
“Vaikuntam puguvadhu mannavar vidhiye”

Then how can one give Chiranjeevi title?

HanumAn is like “iruppidam vaikundham Venkatam”

By saying “PirAtti has not given mOksham seperately”
We are trying to create divorce/division between each other. They agreed to grant moksham together. Who are we to seperate them?

Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy in upanyasam clearly states ” Don’t go to perumAl directly and don’t go to thAyAr directly for moksham. Ramayanam is sharanAgathi ShAstram”

“NirvAha korakita nEma katAksha leelaam”

She creates, protects and destroys just like perumAl.

She has the same KalyAna gunams as perumAl Sriman NArAyanA.

PramAnam:
Adiyen collecting

Adiyen in pursuit of getting relevant info with Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy’s maanaseeka anugraham

Why not? Swami WILL help me

If there is no life fom why one require moksham?
If thAyAr created just by katAksha leelaam then what’s stopping her from giving moksham?

Second point,
If thAyAr’s recommendation can grant us moksha, then thAyAr’s non recommendation can stop us from mOksham. Isn’t it? So she is the cause of moksham.

So moksham is lying with her and not even with perumAl I would say.

Near me is Madhava Perumal and he is Vaikunta perumAl direct descendant for brighu munivar

It’s PEI AZHWAR avathAra sthalam. Pei Azhwar was born in the well.

Pei Azhwar first saw “Thiru Kandaen pon mEni kanden”

After so much effort of Vaiiyam thagaliyAi, Anbe thagaliyAi

The argument that thAyAr cannot grant moksham seperately has no substance. The task is divided.

Now we remember, JatAyu saw SitA pirAtti first, fought with Ravana (kainkaryam), then Rama gave moksham. It was due to pirAtti katAksham even in this case.

There cannot be any instance where perumAl gave moksham without thAyAr or her acceptance. Am 100% sure

In fact Perumal being SriPathi (with Sri) because of Sri only. If she is not there then Perumal also does not have Sri KatAksham. He is also helpless.

Adiyen go one step above and say
“PerumAl is SrimAn because of Sri”

Can anyone deny that? Try

The Vedam identifies NArAyana because of Sri. Without Sri one can argue it’s any god.

She is giving address to PERUMAL

She is Lakshmi because ilakkumi in tamil , ilakkai kaamithu koduppaval – Sri U.Ve KarunAkarAchAr swamy

So Perumal has never given mOksham seperatly away from thAyAr

One more pramAnam pasuram
“Thiru illA thevarai theyrenmin thevu”

Azhwar says I cannot see such a perumAl without thAyar.

They will do it together. She is not a special jeevAthman. It’s a misunderstanding that requires correction

Sri Mahalakshmi is ParamAthman

Brahma Vishnu ShivAthmikA

ParamEshi jaganMAtha: Mahalakshmi NamOsthuthey

Siddhi buddhi prade Devi bukthi mukthi pradAyini
Mantra

Vishnu PurAnam – Lakshmi Sthuthi by Indra
यज्ञविद्या महाविद्या गुह्यविद्या च शोभने । आत्मविद्या च देवि त्वं विमुक्तिफलदायिनी ॥ ५॥

हे शोभने ! यज्ञ-विद्या (कर्म-काण्ड), महाविद्या (उपासना) और गुह्यविद्या (इन्द्रजाल) तुन्ही हो तथा हे देवी ! तुम्ही मुक्ति-फल-दायिनी आत्मविद्या हो।

Dasanudasan

on August 15, 2017

Sri Sthuthi:
Shlokam 7
pasyantheeshu Sruthishu paritha: soori-BrundhEna sArdham
madhyE kruthya thriguNa phalakam nirmitha-sTAna bhEdham
VisvAdheesa PraNayini ! sadhA vibrama-dhyUthavrittau
BrahmEsAdhyA dhadhathi yuvayOr-akhasAra-prachAram

Both of You play a game of chess with primordial Nature (Moola Prakruthi) as the
chess board marked by different colored squares. Brahma, Iswara and other devathAs
are the pawns to be moved; the VedAs and ever-liberated souls watch this game

on August 15, 2017

Sri Sthuthi
Slokam 8

ThvAmEvAhu: kathichith aparE Thvath-Priyam LokanATam
kim thair-antha: kalaha-malinai: kimchith utterya magnai:
Thvath Sampreetyai viharathy Harau sammukheenAm SrutheenAm
bhAvArUDhau Bhagavathy ! YuvAm Dampathee dhaivatham na

Meaning according to Dr. M. NarasimhAchAry:
Some speak of You alone as the Supreme Power, while some others speak of Your
beloved exclusively as the Supreme. But our firm conviction is that You the couple,
constitute the Godhead.

Meaning according to Vaikunta Vaasi Villivalam NaarAyaNAcchAr
Swamy:
Bhagavathy! Some say that You are the Supreme (PradhAnam). Others say Your Lord
is the PradhAnam. Let these people with such diametrically opposite views quarrel
like those who climb and fall. Let these little men, who quarrel among
themselves after they arrive at an auspicious matter, do what they please! Indeed,
Your Lord engages in the sport of Creation of the Universe etc for Your delight. When
He does all these for Your pleasure, both of You residing at the center of Sruthis as the
Divine Couple, are our Para Devathi.

Expanded meaning according to Vaikunta Vaasi Sri V.N.SrIrAma
DesikAchAr:
Oh MahA Devi! There are many mathams and they have different views about Your
Tattvam. Some say that You are the Empress of this universe. Using this view as their
central belief, they interpret this view in different ways. One group states that You and
NaarAyaNan are only one AathmA but have two separate bodies. Another group
believes that EmperumAn is called as Lakshmi and there is no separate form for
Lakshmi. Yet another group advocates that NaarAyaNan creates You for enjoying
pleasure just as He took on Mohini Roopam during the churning for amrutham
to bewitch the AsurAs. Few others say that NaarAyaNan has taken the female
form and has the name of Lakshmi to unite with Her permanently. A select
few believe that You are the Supreme most being over and above the three tatvams of
ChEtanam, achEtanam and Iswaran. Thus all of these groups accept You,
Bhagavathy, as SarvEswari and yet argue with each other along the above lines.
Opposing this view that Lakshmi is SarvEswari, a group denies Your
SarvEswarathvam and insist that NaarAyaNan is the Lord of the entire universe
(SarvEswaran) and that You (Lakshmi) has no claim to be called Iswari. They claim
that you are a visEsha Jeevan.
These two groups that insist and reject Iswarathvam for Lakshmi argue vehemently
for their points of view and become exhausted. These people declare that their views
are backed by SaasthrAs and are unable to establish their points of views (i-e) they
come forward to accept that Lakshmi is a separate Tatthvam and accept
Her Vaibhavam but they fall apart by not accepting the Iswarathvam (nature of Being
Iswari) of Lakshmi.
Oh Devi with all auspicious attributes! Our SiddhAntham is quite different. We
believe that Your Lord engages in acts such as Creation of the beings of the world for
Your pleasure (amusement). The VedAs appear to be talking about Him alone, when
looked superficially. If one studies the Vedams deeply, it becomes clear that the inner
meaning of the VedAs is about revering You both as equal. VedAs have also explicitly
stated the above views. Therefore, We consider Both of You as Para Devathai. During
the performance of Prapatthi, One has to accept both of You as UpAyam (means) for
the offering of the AathmA. In some Yaj~nams, SaasthrAs point out that one has to
combine two dEvathAs into One and offer the Havis to that united DEvathai.
Therefore, One has to have BOTH OF YOU as the target to offer the AathmA as the
Havis and THUS conclude the Prapatthi Yaj~nam successfully. As a fruit of that
offering, the Muktha Jeevan should perform Nithya Kaimkaryam to BOTH OF YOU
at Your Supreme abode. Both of You together shine as upAyam and phalan

on August 15, 2017

Additional Observations on the passages of the slOkam 7 of SrI Sthuthi:
1) “Bhagavathy! kathichith ThvAm yEva aahu:” (Some aver that You alone are the
Iswari / Supreme Being and the Empress of the World) .

2) “aparE Thvath Priyam LokanATam aahu:” (Others insist that it is Your dear
husband, who is the SarvEswaran).

3) These opposing groups dispute each other and get up and fall down
(antha: kalaha malinai: kinchith uttheerya magnai:) .

4) What is the use of these disputants? (kim Thai:?) .

5) Your dear husband performs all the Leelais (Srushti, RakshaNam and SamhAram)
to gladden Your heart (Thvath sampreethyai: Viharathy Hari:).

6) The VedAs focusing on Hari have the core conviction that You as the Couple
(Husband and Wife) are our Para DEvathai (Harou SammukeenAm srutheenAm
bhAva aarUdau, Dampathy YUVAAM na: DHAIVATHAM)

on August 15, 2017

Swami Danyosmi

Thanks for a long explanation. I interesting to read.

“Sarvam khalvidam brahma”
So adiyen can argue that we cannot bring inequality to parabrahmam who himself is self manifested into everything. Dhosham sambhavikkum.

One small correction. Dvaita also didn’t say that there is inequality in Parabrahma. In fact, Madhvacharyar says, all five forms of Lord (Para, Vyuha, Vibhava, Antaryami and Archai) have no difference.

But, He is Antaryami of all and Jivas are individual sentient being. Thayaar case is different and I like Visishtadvaita which gives importance to Her equal to Perumal. However, in Dvaita also, Lord Narayana is stated as Sarva Svathantran but Lakshmi is not in ordinary Jiva list. In fact, the Taratamyam chart itself starts from Brahma only as Jiva.

There are many misconceptions by people in Dvaita also. For example, Adishankara Bagavad Padar states clearly in his Brahma Sutras that Jiva is different from Brahmam. Still, people have misconception that they are one and the same. This is not Adishankara’s fault. It’s in the way how people understood. Similarly, Dvaita is also mis-understood in many ways.

I do agree that She has equal powers but She doesn’t give Moksham directly. There is no single case as Pramana, where she bypassed Perumal and shown that She is equal to Perumal in granting Moksha.

So, as you said, they both give together is convincing.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 15, 2017

Some reference to Yukti Mallika of Vadiraja Theerthar, a Madhva Guru.

You might have seen Vimana Venkateswarar in Tirumala. Perumal directly appeared from Ananda Nilayam to give darshan to him.

In his work, he says, “Goddess Lakshmi is glorious”.

“Goddess Lakshmi who is the mother of both liberated and unliberated should be saluted with devotion” etc.

So, in no way, Dvaitins have degraded Thayaar. They don’t compare Thayaar with other Nithya Suris or other Jivas. But, when it comes to Sarva Swatantriyam, they say that Perumal is independent whereas Thayaar is dependent on Perumal. But, Visishtadvaita says, both are Swatantra. Everyone have basis for their own statements.

However, Thayaar has not used Her swathantratva so far in giving Moksham to Jivas, bypassing Perumal. They both together give is convincing.

Thayaar recommending Moksha to Jivatmas is accepted by Dvaita also. They also agree that there is no Moksham without Thayaar Kataksham. But, Moksha is granted by Perumal.

So, let us discuss Siddhantas but I think we are not eligible to say corrections that are required Philosophically.

I understand that all three Acharyas are perfect in their Siddhantas. Only our mis-understanding, may be slight or major causes difference and makes us think one Philosophy is superior to another.

I am a Madhva by birth. But, we have miniature of Tirumala at home where my father does Brahmotsavam, daily poojas right from Suprabhatam to Ekantaseva, weekly poojas like Abishekam etc as in Tirumala. We follow Srivaishnava Sampardayam only for Perumal poojas as in Tirumala.

We respect both Bagavad Ramanujar and Shri Madhvacharyar equally.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

on August 15, 2017

@Vikram Swami

One more Pramana to add in your favour.

Sri Suktam states, “Siddha Lakshmir Moksha Lakshmir Jayalakshmis Saraswathy”.

Moksha Lakshmi means, “One who is capable of granting Moksha”. This may help you.

But, as you rightly said already, Thayaar never bypasses Perumal and grants Moksha through Perumal only, though She has equal powers.

So, they both grant together would be the right conclusion I believe.

Sarvam Shri Krishnaarpanamastu!

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0 on August 16, 2017

Srimathe Rangaramanuja Mahadesikaya Namaha

Adiyen’s reply not showing up in my cell phone
The answer may try to project Vadakalai view to a very small extent.

Adiyen not qualified to talk about this extreme subject matter.

I was advised not to enter such discussion just by listening upanyAsams without listening kAlakshEpams.

My battle is lost then and there.

Srivatsangachariyar Swamy once said ” Vyanjanam includes everything (food) not just sathumadhu and thayir sadham seperately”.

If we see from that angle this perspective will get some light I guess.

To viewer number seen as 6 to adiyen number seen as 9. It’s the same number.

Adiyen reference texts:
1. Sri Sthuthi by Swami Desikan
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.sadagopan.org/index.php/component/djcatalog2/%3Fformat%3Draw%26task%3Ddownload%26fid%3D617&ved=0ahUKEwiNgZOzkdnVAhUMMo8KHS3ZAQgQFghFMAo&usg=AFQjCNHfB7B_Wl-omeXC_dvpAAsF73wMOw

2. Srivatsangachariyar Swamy upanyAsam & vidwat sadas:

Perumal Thirumozhi by Srivatsangachariyar Swamy

Adiyen closing thread
Dasanudasan

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0 on August 26, 2017

Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swamy Thiruvadigaley Sharanam
????????????????

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