Baktha and Bagavatha

Updated on May 6, 2021 in General
20 on May 2, 2021

Namaskaram to all,
What is the difference between Baktha and Bagavatha ?

 
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0 on May 3, 2021

நமஸ்காரம்

 

ஸ்ரீவைணவத்தில் திருமாலை வணங்குபவர் பக்தர், அத்திருமாலை நாம ஜெபங்களாலும், நாம சங்கீர்த்தனைகளாலும், உபன்நியாசங்களாலும் திருமாலின் கல்யாண குணங்களையும், அவதார மகிமைகளையும் மக்களிடையே பரப்புபவர்கள் பாகவதர்கள்.

தவறெனின் மன்னித்து தயை கூர்ந்து அறிந்தவர்கள் விளக்குங்கள், அடியேனும் அறிய காத்திருக்கிறேன். 

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1 on May 4, 2021

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami Guruvae Namaha,

 

Namaskaram HemaAshok Bhakta or Bhagavata and any other devotees who have similar doubht,

 

With Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam and Ammangaar Abhimaanam and Velukkudi Sri Krishnan Swami’s Aasirvadham,

 

Adiyens understanding from Upantasams is, both ‘Bhakta’ and ‘Bhagavata represents same meanings as ‘Dedicated devotees’ of THE Supreme Param Porul Sriman Narayana, as they understand they are ‘Jeevathmas’ and a property of BhagavAn Sriman Narayanan ONLY, means

 

மறந்தும் புறம் தோழா மாந்தர்”.

 

Adiyen believe it depends up on usage, some like to call as Bhakta, some like to call as Bhagavata for dedicated devotees of SriKrishna who doesnt pray demi-gods, but the practical world is not like that due to Avidhya covered in every JeevAthma.

 
Since ‘Bhakta’ word is commonly used by those who pray demi-gods like shiva, karthekeya etc… then to distinguish the Supreme SriKrishna Bhaktas, words like Bhagavata or Adiyargal is used more frequently. But “Bhakta or Bhagavata or Adiyar” by default means dedicated SriKrishna devotees as per definition in slokas mentioned by Swami RamanujAr below:

 
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Samsaara Visha VrikshasyA,
Duo Phalegi Amrithopame
Kathachitu Keseva Bhakthihi
Tath Bhakthairva Samagaha

 

Meaning:

Line1: Samsaram is Visha Maram (Poison Tree)
Line2: Only two Amritha/Sweet Fruits reap out of that Poison Tree, remaining countless fruits are Visham to be avoided.
Line3: One Amritha Fruit is Kesava Bhakthi
Line4: Second Amritha Fruit is Avan (Kesavan) Adiyargaludan ‘Searndhu (together)’ Iruthhal (Acharyas/BhagavAtas Sathvika Satsangam)

 

So line4 “Bhaktairva” PRIMARILY means Kesavan adiyaargal, but this word Bhakta is applied differently in practical world for followers of demi-gods, which is NOT JeevAthma Swaroopam. What can we do about it.

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To understand Bhagavata definition, we need to understand the definition of “BhaGaVan (பகவான்)” first.

 

Bha (ப): means two kalya gunas“Gyana (Ultimate Knowledge), Bhala (Ultimate Strength)”

 
Ga (க): means two kalya gunas “Veera (Ultimate Valour), Aishwarya (Ultimate Opulence)”,

Va (வா): means two kalya gunas“Shakthi (Ultimate Energy), Thejas (Ultimate Luster)”

 
N (ன்): means one who donot have any Theeya gunas (no bad qulaities)

 

So BhaGaVan means One who doesn’t have and any bad qualities and possesses all the 6 above Ultimate Qualities (Kalyana Gunas). This applies to ONLY Sriman NarayanAn and no one else has these 6 gunas, since all demi-gods has rajas-tamas-satvik gunas mixed together which makes them do bad activities at times as seen in Srimadh Bhagavatam. Only Sriman NarayanAn has Suddha Satva Gunam with No Rajas and No Tamas gunas.

 
But in practical usage, people ignorantly call demi-gods shiva, karthikeya etc…as Bhagavan or Lord as well. What can we do about it.

 
Appadi patta 6 kalya gunangal udaya BhaGaVanai MATTUM Artthipadhu (Poojai seybhavar) / அப்படிப்பட்ட 6 கல்யாண குணங்கள் உடைய பகவானை மட்டும் அர்த்திப்பது is termed as BhaGaVata (Adiyar)’ is the definition of Bhagavata.

 

SO Bhaktha or BhagavAta is same intent, but there is further higher level truth as below:

 

At the same time, a Bhagavata who is a PURE DEVOTEE of Sriman NaraynAn and does Kainkaryam for the Joy of Sriman Narayanan is also called as a BhagavAn.

 

Hence Swami Ramanujar is also called as “BhagavAt” Ramanujar. Does other demi-gods deserve such BhagavAn title when they donot do Service to Bhagavan Sriman Narayanan. There is no Panivu or ADIYEN DASAN Bhaavam seen in demi-gods in those temples.  What can we do about it?. We can only pray on Acharyan lotus feet to give Nalla Bhuddhi to demi-gods, so they also realize, they are also JeevAthmas and Property “Sotthu” of Sriman NarayanAn, like other Bhagavatas, Mahans and Acharyas prayed on our behalf to make us realize our JeevaAthma Swaroopam with their Krupa Kataksham, since BhagavAn will not change these things with HIS sankalpam, as it is HIS Leela Vibhoothi and HE likes to play with Jiva Karmas and wants Jivaas to improve step-step by hiding HIS Parathvam/Krupai.

So Acharya Ramanujar Thiruvadigalaey namakku GADHI. Avarai namakku kudutthadhar’kkaaga Sriman Narayana’nukku Pallaandu. Sri Velukkudi Krishnan Swami ThiruvAdigalaey Sharanam.

 

Hence we Bhakta’s or BhagavAta’s are elevated to a HIGHER TITLE as “ADIYEN RAMANUJA DASAN” and further termed or called as Dasas of Ramanuja Dasas, like ” Adiyen Sri Velukkudi Krishna Dasan ” etc…

 

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Namakkum, demi-gods’kkum Uyyu’vadharkku Oraey Vazhi UdayavAr ThiruvAdi,

 

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan,

UYYA ORAEY VAZHI UDAYAVAR THIRUVADI,

Sarvam SriKrisharpanam Asthu,
Sarvam Sri Krishna Kudumbham

அனைவருக்கும் நமஸ்கரம்.

As Elaya Aazhwar swamy says, “bhakthA” refers to anyone engaged in one of the 9 kinds of devotional activities; whereas the dictionary meaning of ‘bhAgavathA is “one who belongs to bhagavAn’ (since everyone and everything belongs to bhagavAn, the connotational meaning here is ‘those who have realised that they belong to bhagavAn).

 

However in certain situations I have heard SriVaishnavas use the word in a different connotation: The word ‘SriVaishnavas’ is used to refer to those who have received pancasamskaaram, and in contrast the word ‘bhAgavathAs’ is used to refer to devotees who have not received pancasamskaaram.  I am not sure if this cononotational usage of these two words is common; just sharing to know if my understanding is correct. 

 

adiyen dasan.

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0 on May 4, 2021

Namaskaram.

adiyen feel we can be magnanimous in replying to the query by following ::  Wherever it is not in the discussion or not warranted, one should not bring other gods into the discussion. We have our principles and Let others also follow their principles. I am not supporting anyone.  But this is adiyen’s humble request.

adiyen

Srivaishnava dasan

 

 

 

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0 on May 4, 2021

Super, i agree with Jayaram swamy ☺️.

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0 on May 4, 2021

Thanks to Sivaraj swamy,ElayaAlwar swamy and Kambandasan swamy for your explanations.

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0 on May 4, 2021

இளைய ஆழ்வார் சுவாமி ,
தங்கள் பதிவைப்பார்த்து சிறிது பயமாக உள்ளது. எங்கள் இல்லத்தில் ஆதிசங்கர பகவத் பாதர் கூறிய ஷன்மதக் கடவுள்களுக்கும் வழிபாடு உண்டு.
மாணிக்க வாசகப்பெருமாளின் சிவபுராணத்தைக் கேட்டு கண்ணீர் பெருக்கெடுப்பதும் உண்டு, சீதம்மாவின் வனவாசத்தை நினைத்து கண்ணீர் வடிப்பதும் உண்டு.
பகவான் ரமணர், ஷீரடி பாபா, இராமானுஜாச்சாரியார், இராமகிருஷ்ண பரமஹம்சர், சாரதா மணி தேவியார், விவேகானந்தர் போன்ற மஹான்களின் வாழ்க்கை வரலாற்றை படித்து கண்கள் கசிவதும் உண்டு.
பெரிய பெரிய ஜாம்பவான்கள் இக்குழுவில் உள்ளீர்கள். சந்தேகத்தை கேட்கலாமா என்ற சிறு தயக்கத்துடனேயே எப்பொழுதும் கேட்கிறேன்.
நாம் அனைவரும் சனாதன தர்மத்தைச் சேர்ந்தவர்கள். அவ்வளவே.வேளுக்குடி சுவாமி அடிக்கடி கூறுவதைப்போல் 2% மட்டுமே ஷன்மதங்களில் வேறுபாடு உள்ளது. ஆழ்வார்கள், நாயண்மார்கள் கூறும் கருத்துகள் ஒன்றே, கடவுளின் பெயர் மட்டுமே வேறு.
அனைவரும் நாராயணனை அடைந்து மோட்சத்தை அடைய வேண்டும் என்ற தவிப்பு தங்கள் பதிலில் தெரிகிறது.
வைகுந்தம் புகுவது மண்ணவர் விதியே என்ற வாக்கின் படி அனைவரும் போவோம்.எனக்கு நம்பிக்கை உள்ளது.
ஆணவம்,கண்மம்,மாயை என்ற மும்மலங்களால் சூழப்பட்டு உள்ள இந்த அடிமையின் வார்த்தைகள் தங்களை ஏதேனும் காயப்படுத்தி இருந்தால் தயவு செய்து மன்னிக்கவும் .

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3 on May 4, 2021

Another point adiyen would like to mention is that mostly other gods and devathas are also worshipping Lord Narayanan. Hence, defaming them will not be considered Bhagavatha Apacharam?.

adiyen

on May 4, 2021

Read “defaming” as “discrediting”.
Feel this may be a better word?.

One cannot follow all 6 Mathams. It is impossible as each one is too vast. When One should respect all living beings, without any doubt one should respect all Gods. But to practise that, one need not worship all Gods. Worship is sadhana and that should be chosen according to the (sadhya) destination you want to reach.

on May 5, 2021

Resp. Sri. Velukkudi Krishnan swamy,

Thanks for the clarification.
Yes. adiyen also meant the same thing, i.e., while we follow one sampradayam and worship as per our sampradayam, we should respect other Gods.

adiyen

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0 on May 5, 2021

As per adiyen’s understanding::

There are 9 nine types of bakthi which are mentioned in our scriptures. Bakthi yogam is mentioned in Bhagavat Gita. Any one, be it any sampradayam, who follows them are called baktha.  Generally, Srivaishnavites who has taken up panchasamskararam are called bagavathas.

This can be corrected if it is found to be incorrect.

adiyen

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0 on May 5, 2021

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha,

Not sure , I could not find a reference for the answer below, but just sharing based on my inference of different upanyasams heard.

Bhakta is a one who has some amount of devotion to God, but it is mixed with material interests of 4 kinds – ” removal of material distressed, the desire of wealth, inquisitiveness, and search of knowledge of the Absolute”

Bhagavata is one who is fully devoted to God in thought, speech and action without any other material interest.

So ideally all devotees will assume themselves not to be a Bhagavatha and will treat other devotees as Bhagavathas out of humility and respect.

Adiyen

Thirukachidaasanudasan

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1 on May 5, 2021

மதிப்பிற்குரிய வேளுக்குடி சுவாமிகளுக்கு நமஸ்காரம்.
தங்களுடைய பதிலுக்கு மிக்க நன்றி. தாங்கள் கூறுவது நன்றாகப் புரிகிறது.
எனது புகுந்த வீட்டில் பின்பற்றப்பட்டு வரும் பூஜை முறைகளையே நானும் செய்கிறேன்.இதில் என் நிலை என்ன?என்ன செய்ய வேண்டும் என்று புரியவில்லையே .

அம்மா, அடியேனின் அதிக பிரசங்கி தனத்தை மன்னித்து அருளவும்.

இந்த கேள்வியை ஸ்வாமியின் email-லுக்கு அனுப்பி பதில் பெறுவது மேல் என்று தோன்றுகிறது. His answer will be specific to your situation, and hence can avoid the possibility of people seeing it as a general norm for everyone.

தயவு செய்து அடியேனின் அதிக பிரசங்கி தனத்தை மன்னிக்கவும்

தாசன்.

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