Namaskaram swamy.
திருச்சந்த விருத்தம் திருமொழி Pasuram 9 – 10,
“குலங்களாய வீரிரண்டி லொன்றிலும்பி றந்திலேன்,
நலங்களாய நற்கலைகள் நாவிலும்ந வின்றிலேன்,
புலன்களைந்தும் வென்றிலேன்பொ றியிலேன்பு னிதநின்
இலங்குபாத மன்றிமற்றொர் பற்றிலேனெம் மீசனே”
In this pasuram, Thirumazhisai Azhwar says “I was not born in one of the four varnas”. adiyen would like to understand what does this mean, why he has stated so or whether he means he is varna free?.
adiyen
SriVaishnava dasan
Swami please hear our Swami’s lucid explanation of this verse. BTW this is verse no 90. In 27th minute, our Swami gives an explanation based on the purvacharya vyakyanam. Your exact question is asked in minute 30. The meaning for this verse should be understood in the following order (Avarohanam):
| பொறியிலேன் | சப்த, ஸ்பர்ச, ரூப, ரஸ, கந்த, ஆகிய |
| புலன்கள் ஐந்தும் | பஞ்சேந்திரியங்களையும் |
| வென்றிலேன் | ஜெயிக்கவில்லை |
| நலங்களாய | நன்மைதரக் கூடிய |
| நற்கலைகள் | வேதங்கள் |
| நாலிலும் | நான்கையும் |
| நவின்றிலேன் | கற்றிலேன் |
| ஈரிரண்டில் | நான்கு |
| குலங்களாய | வர்ணங்களுக்குள் |
| ஒன்றிலும் | ஒரு வர்ணத்திலும் நான் |
| பிறந்திலேன் | பிறக்கவில்லை |
| புனித | பரிசுத்தமான எம்பெருமானே! |
| நின் | உன்னுடைய |
| இலங்கு | ஒளிமிக்க |
| பாதம் அன்றி | திருவடிகளை அடைவது தவிர |
| மற்று ஒர் | வேறு ஒரு மார்க்கம் |
| பற்று இலேன் | தெரியவில்லை எனக்கு |
| எம் ஈசனே! | எம்பெருமானே! |
So the gist is that we have no qualifications to liberate and we are stuck in this samsara because we are driven by the senses as we didn’t study the Vedas even though we had the birthright. We know this Azhwar was born in Bhrigu Kulam to Kanakangi rishi and was raised by a bamboo craftsman couple TiruvAlan-Pankaya chelvi. Even though Azhwar was born in Brahmana Varna, like Sri Krishna, who considered himself a Vyasya and not a Kshatriya, Azhwar considers that he doesn’t belong to that varna. The meaning is also compared to some people like us for eg: we see many who are born as Brahmin still eat meat, consume alcohol, and don’t study the Vedas.
You can access Swami’s lucid explanation at
https://velukkudidiscourses.com/product/thiruchanda-viruttam/
adiyen
dasunudasan.
Thank you swamy for your pin point details.
Since, I do not intend to purchase any audios for the time being, I will not be able to listen to that specific point in the audio.
The reason for raising this query is :
I understood that he was born in one varna and raised by parents of another varna and also the meaning of the pasuram from other sources. The varna in which he was born is known. I could not understand, then the reason why he has mentioned that “நான்கு வர்ணங்களுக்குள் ஒரு வர்ணத்திலும் நான் பிறக்கவில்லை”.
If this point is covered in the video, if possible, can you indicate the answer.
adiyen
Swami, while adiyen is not forcing devareer to buy anything, in this particular case, adiyen is being verily reminded on the following upadesa rathina malai (URM) verse:
*முன்னோர் மொழிந்த முறை தப்பாமல் கேட்டு*
பின்னோர்ந்து தாம் அதனைப் பேசாதே*
தம் நெஞ்சில் தோற்றினதே சொல்லி
இது சுத்த உபதேசவர வாற்றது என்பர்* மூர்க்கர் ஆவார். (71)
While the above is true for every reply we all post in this forum, adiyen felt this is very true for this question. Since devareer is not willing to purchase the audio, adiyen thought that devareer will be at least able listen to this part of the lucid explanation by our Velukkudi Swami based on purvacharyas purports. Devareer would appreciate how our Swami strictly abides to the URM verse in this case. adiyen posting the part of this explanation in the following link with the intention that this would inspire devareer to listen to the full explanation as the question is based on a pasuram and not a generic one.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1o5Gb54NE3AYAWJPOS7ozBUeTKFw6Sdaz/view?usp=sharing
@admin: please apologize adiyen and remove this reply, if adiyen is violating any copyright constraints.
adiyen.
Badri swamy,
I was expecting reply in words. Thank you for your efforts and providing the specific portion of the audio through link. Very kind of you. Listened to the audio, need some clarification, will post soon.
It is not that I do not want to purchase the audio. I have purchased few audios earlier, even those I could not listen completely. These days, I am not finding time to listen to full discourses. I have occupied myself in preparation and attempting to provide preliminary introduction of Bhagavat Gita and Nalayira Divya Prabandham to some and kindle the interest.
Well. If I remember correctly, on an earlier occasion also devareer have quoted URM verse 71, but I do not remember the thread now. I have replied / objected to that. This forum is introduced by our swamy to enable the members to get the doubts cleared. Your post mentioning URM, does not appear to fall in line with this. We, the members here are communicating our doubts and trying to get the reply. In fact, we address our queries to our swamy in this forum. Then, how our postings can be related to the verse quoted from URM. Wherever required, I have provided references for the details. I believe, many would have been happy to receive direct reply from our swamy. Every one of us can not approach a qualified teacher for each and every question of ours. This forum is a quicker mode of communication than approaching learned people and getting reply as per URM quoted. Hence, we must be grateful for providing this forum. I express my displeasure on devareer’s comment quoting URM verse 71.
In the past 4 months, I have prepared the (simple) meaning of Bhagavat Gita (both in Tamil and English) and posted about 5 slokas a day in social media of my circle. More than 50 persons have viewed intermittently, of which 20+ persons were regular. The attempt was to provide an opportunity for them to study and kindle their interest.
Now I have started with 4000 Divya prabhandham, preparing the meaning of each pasuram (similar to word by word meaning) in prose form, conveying meaning in a short form. Proposed to take up only popular pasurams, with vedantic meaning and with Tamil grammatical style. This is only a preliminary attempt to introduce Nalayira Divya Prabandham and again kindle their interest.
Swami, adiyen’s reference to URM 71 is not about asking questions but about giving replies. Asking questions is greatly appreciated and promoted in our sampradayam. But when giving responses is when we have to be careful that’s why adiyen mentioned URM 71. Devareeer is making a great effort to spread our dharma living close to what the Lord said in BG 18.68
Swamy, thank you for your complements and invite.
My present, self assigned service is a commitment, since some people are reading regularly, some of them are in the age of 20+. There is some intention to do some work, on the work of the lineage of acharya (PBA swamy) to which I belong. He has written quite a lot on srivaishnava sampradayam. They can be prepared in a simple and lucid language to enable the present generation to understand. I just enquired about the availability of website for his work with my acharya and did not go beyond that, but still undecided.
I will initiate the communication in the mail address mentioned by you. Let Him guide what He wants me to do.
It is more than a year since I made the sambhavanai. This thread has reminded me about that. I shall do that.
On URM 71 : Well. Since the word question was mentioned, I have replied considering that. Thank you for the clarification. It is my opinion that URM 71 need not be strictly applied for each and every reply. One should not put a block to the thinking process by that. We are only discussing here and take the meaning full, authenticated information at the end. My approach is, as I have replied on atma in this thread, explain why that is not applicable rather than totally curbing. Yes. Opinion differs.
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
@ SriVaishnava dasan,
Regarding “………. Thirumazhisai Azhwar says “I was not born in one of the four varnas”. adiyen would like to understand what does this mean, why he has stated so or whether he means he is varna free?…………”
As we know “Varna” word doesn’t mean “Discrimination”, its “Differentiation” based on “One’s Own Nature – Type of activities they are involved”.
Hence BhagavAn defined the structure or Categories as below:
So, the idea is based on genetic DNA, if one belonging to the same type of work activity, say a warrior, administrator (a.k.a Kshatriya), then if their Heirloom succeeding family members get the same interest due to their parents in same field, then they will be called in same category as Warrior, but suddenly if someone in their family, think to switch their Interests to Spiritual side, then they will be categorized as a Brahmin based on “Ones Own Characteristics if it matches 1st category“, though there is some Ritualistic appearance procedure needed. However, it will be tough to acquire such knowledge, since hereditarily they don’t have that affinity, with some exceptions, who are blessed directly by BhagavAn or Pious Acharyas, to get that knowledge.
Later, we know due to the existence of busy activities of these four types of categorized people, there evolved a certain sect of people due to the nature of the world, who didn’t do any of these above four activities. They were basically heedlessness and doing household cleaning, street cleaning etc….though they are Respectful Human beings, they just sticked to these types of jobs due to their lack of interest in these above four types of activities.
Eventually, due to their nature of work, since it involved in dealing with Unclean areas, other four categories’ humans just tried keep them aside. Its same thing that we do. We don’t touch any people, if they don’t wash hands, or come clean. But it is not discrimination, just respectfully staying away.
However, due to the nature of the World being embedded with Rajo-Tamo gunas, some people started discriminating these people and started defining as “Untouchables“. There are specific names for these type of people in Sanskrit and Tamil as seen in this image. This became as Man-Made Fifth Category., in to which Thiruppaan Alwar (Paanar kulam) and Thirumazhisai Alwar got tangled as well. This is what ThiruMazhisai ALwar is saying, that “I Don’t belong to any of the four categories”, basically means the fifth one due to HIS adopted parents job style.
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However, it’s not a big deal now, since anyone of any of the Almighty GOD made four category Plus the man-made fifth category, does their own house cleaning, toilet cleaning etc…For those who have not learned, BhagavAn has made a scenario Pandemic and taught everyone to clean their own stuffs. So basically, in present context, a born Brahmin also does all the remaining four activities, same way kShatriya does the remaining four activities as well in their day-to-day life., same story applies to all five categories.
Another example in present context is Dr. B.R. Ambedkar was a born man-made fifth category, but due to his interests he became “India’s First Law Minister and the Principal Architect of Indian Constitution”.- transformed to kShatriya (Administrator).
Another example, due to the Charu story, Vishwamitrar transformed from born kShatriya Kulam to a BrahmaRishi…..It all happens in this world with BhagavAn’s grace, Acharya Krupai, BhagavAta Abhimaanam.
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Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan.
ElayaAlwar swamy,
Thank you for taking your time and giving your reply.
I understood that Ramanuja bestowed the title of Tirukkulattar, to certain section of the people. Apart from some other people, I understood these people to be termed varna free, since they do not fall under the category of four varnas. That is the reason why I have asked in my initial post, whether Thirumazhisai azhwar means he is varna free.
whether he means he is varna free?
Probably ‘varna free’ and ‘man made fifth category’ may indicate the same, still I am not sure.
Despite your explanation, I would like to point out that azhwar has not mentioned, (as you have indicated) that he does not belong to any of the four categories. He mentioned clearly that he did not born in any of the four varnas. It can be noted that he has used the word பிறந்திலேன் in the pasuram.
Hence, I would say, still my query remains.
Jayaram Swami,
I wonder if we can treat Thirumazhisai Azhwar’s statement as a ‘jivAtmA’ he doesn’t belong to any of the varnA?
As somebody who identified himself not with ‘HIS’ body but ‘atmA’, he must have said so.
Isn’t it true for every one of us, not just the Azhwar?
– Adiyen
Srivats Swami, in this case let’s not assume anything because our purvacharyas, through their causeless mercy have clarified to the exact question raised before itself. Please listen to the audio posted above for the clarification.
adiyen.
Srivats swamy,
It is a good thought. But if one observe the pasuram, it can be inferred that it is not the case. I have extracted the meaning from the posting Badri swamy and has given below :
சப்த, ஸ்பர்ச, ரூப, ரஸ, கந்த, ஆகிய பஞ்சேந்திரியங்களையும் ஜெயிக்கவில்லை. நன்மைதரக் கூடிய வேதங்கள் நான்கையும் கற்றிலேன். நான்கு வர்ணங்களுக்குள் ஒரு வர்ணத்திலும் நான் பிறக்கவில்லை. பரிசுத்தமான எம்பெருமானே! உன்னுடைய ஒளிமிக்க திருவடிகளை அடைவது தவிர வேறு ஒரு மார்க்கம் தெரியவில்லை எனக்கு எம்பெருமானே!
One can see azhwar saying that he has not conquered the five Indriyas (பஞ்சேந்திரியங்கள்), he has not read the vedas and was not born in one of the four varnas.
It means that the pasuram is associated with body rather than atma.
Resp. Sri U.Ve. Velukkudi Krishnan swamy,
I listened to the specific audio portion providing clarification on “குலங்களாய வீரிரண்டி லொன்றிலும்பி றந்திலேன்”
It is mentioned in the audio that people belonging beyond 4 varnas are not eligible to learn vedas and Thirumazhisai Azhwar belongs to the varna of his brought up parents. adiyen would like to know whether it means he is avarna or varna free and his brought parents belongs to tribal class, which is avarna.
Kindly excuse if this clarification is inappropriate.
adiyen
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,
@Srivaishnava Dasa,
There is NO varna free concept for Athma in a Human body.
This is called “Vishishta Vesham”. One is categorized based on their activities. This is unavoidable by anyone.
For those who can see Athma Gunam separating the bodily appearance/gunas,
It is called “Nishkrishta Vesham”. Alwars/Acharyas/Mahana has such ability to look at others Athma Gunam seperating their Karmic Bodily appearance (Vishishta Vesham).
By Vishishta Vesham (means by Birth), Thirumazhisai Alwars is 5th varna due to his Parents being in 5th varna who raised The Alwar.
To get a grip of it, in another context, You can listen to Swami’s Srimadh Bhagavatam Enpani #348, after 5 minutes where Swami says “1st varna came to get food like that upto 4th varna came, then came Chandalan, like that remaining each came”. So wisely one has to understand 5th varna, and so many remaining varnas. Swami will not use name varna
Your questions are normal symptoms for first time listeners of such topic. For others who has heard these varnas beyond 4 many times in upanyasams, these stories are normal. Once you start listening more Guruparamparai stories from different Vidhvaans then you be in the later part of normal.
As of now, you are listening and reading stories with a fixed mindset that there are only 4 varnas and not beyond, so it makes you to question varna free. It’s not so.
Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan.
ElayaAlwar swamy,
Thank you for the details.
I have read that beyond 4 varnas it is called varna free which includes all others (foreigners also), other than 4 varnas. Same I have indicated initially in this thread. Also, I understand beyond 4 varnas it is called as avarna, which too I have indicated. I presume varna free and avarna could be same. Whether it is varna free / avarna / fifth varna, if it indicates all others, other than 4 varnas, then it is only the terminology that differs. This gives an indication that everyone is covered under these five.
one has to understand 5th varna, and so many remaining varnas. Swami will not use name varna
Your reply indicates that there are more than 5 varnas. Kindly provide the details, if possible, with reference for my information.
Well. Vedas and Gita mention about 4 varnas only. After getting details from these scriptures, if one is told of more varnas, there is every possibility that they can think beyond four varnas could be man made. Do not know the reason, why swamy is not mentioning about 5th varna.
I am regularly listening to Bhagavatham series and listened to #348 also. My recent threads on “vyasa and vidhura” and “Varna system only for human beings” are after listening to Bhagavatham series.
