Many thanks for your explanation swami ! But i am missed to understand how shiva part of thiruvattaru perumal ! True we shouldn’t focus on demigods focus only sriman Narayanan.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram Govindan Narayanan Swami,

With Acharya ThiruvAdi Bhalam & Velukkudi Swami’s Aasrivadham,

Regarding devareer’s 1st query “……………………..But i am missed to understand how shiva part of thiruvattaru perumal………………“

As said above Sriman Narayanan (Samashti Shristi) created Brahma and inturn Brahma (Vyeshti Shristi) created Rudra as per Srimadh BhagavatAm verses.

Hence, these representations are seen in Anantha Padhmanabha Perumal Temple in Thiruvananthapuram, like from Perumal’s Nabhi Kalama Braham is seen and Shiva Linga in same sanctum.

However in Thiruvatar Adhikesava Perumal Temple, Brahma will not be seen in sanctum, since this Perumal represents HIS presence before HE did the Samashti shristi (before creating Brahma). Then came the later Thiruvanathapuram Anantha Padhmanabha Perumal Temple. So Brahma and Shiva presence in the material world is seen at alater stage.

But why only Shiva lingam is seen in Thiruvatar Adhikesava Perumal Temple and not Braham is due to the Sthala mahatmayam, Shiva is doing Kainkaryam to Adhikesava Perumal, since Shiva is a SriVaishnavaite (devotee) of Perumal as said by Vyasa Maharishi in Srimadh Bhagavatam 12.13.16,

Means:

nimna-gānāṁ yathā gaṅgā : Like how Ganga is the greatest of all rivers.

devānām acyuto yathā : Like how acyuto (Achutha a.k.a SriKrishna) is Supreme Para-Brahmam among All Deities,

vaiṣṇavānāṁ yathā śambhuḥ : Like how  amongst the Vaishnavas, Shambhu (Rudra a.k.a Shiva) is a great Vaishnava.

purāṇānām idam tathā : Same way amongst all 18 Puranas, Srimadh BhagavAtam is the Greatest.

Thiruvatar Adhikesa Perumal Sthala Puranam, as how Shiva is doing Kainkaryam to Perumal as below pulled from online Temple website:

Brahma performed a Yaga without Saraswathi Devi and as a result of Saraswathi’s angry, two asuras by name Kesan and Kesi emerged out of the Yagagni (sacrificial fire). They were troubling the three worlds. The Devas approached SriVishnu (Perumal) and requested HIM to find a solution. Lord Mahavishnu in the form of AdhiKesava Perumal fought with Kesan. Perumal threw Kesan who fell on top of Mahendragiri and Perumal blew His conch. Instantaneously, Adhiseshan wound himself around asura Kesan thus disabling the asura to move and immediately Perumal laid on Adhiseshan thus putting His weight. When the asura tried to get out of Adhiseshan’s coils, Perumal made 12 Shivalingams to stand as guard around the asura and Perumal. These famous Shiva Temples are Thirumala, Thikkurussi, Thrupparappu, Thirunandhikkara, Ponmana, Pannippakam, Kalkkulam, Melankodu, Thiruvidaikkodu, Thiruvithamkode, Thiruppanrikkode and Thirunattalam. Even today, the worship to Shiva on Sivarathiri day – The famous Shivalaya ottam – is said to be complete only when the devotee after visiting the 12 Shiva shrines ends his trip in the Perumal Temple.

Kesi who saw her brother defeated wanted to avenge and hence she along with her friend Kothai took the form of rivers and encircled the temple with the intention of submerging the temple. At that time, Bhoomi devi Thayar raised the temple. Hence, the temple is situated at a height of 55 feet from the ground level. The image of the Gopuram clearly indicates this. The rivers joined with Arabian Sea at a place known as Moovaatru mukham. The rivers were warned by Perumal and they repented for their action. Perumal forgave them and had a dip in Moovaatru mukham. Even today, during Painguni utsavam, Perumal comes on golden Garuda and has dip in the river thus enacting the saapa vimochana incident.

Regarding devareer’s 2nd query “…………………….True we shouldn’t focus on demigods focus only sriman Narayanan…….”

This is because, the SriVaishnava’s in one particular Acharya Lineage follow their own Acharya GuruParamparai Shishtacharam, due to which they don’t go and interfere in other devata’s daily routine, since every devata’s or manushya like us is another JeevAthma but in different shareeram’s (bodies) like Deva shareeram or Manushya shareeram, BUT All Jeevathma’s have Praaptham only with the ParamAthma “Sriman NarayanA”. Hence, they don’t focus on others, that doesn’t mean disrespecting other devatas.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan.

Also Govindan Swami, with the above background as adiyen mentioned as how Shiva is a devotee of Perumal, now go back and listen to Velukkudi Swami’s Enpani #304 of Bruhadaranya upanishadh in the begining where Swami says, in both temples at Thiruvananthapuram and Thiruvatar, “Perumal will be keeping HIS hand on Shiva Lingham blessing Shiva“, since Shiva is HIS devotee.

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

NAmsakaaram Elayalwar Swami. Ok form this thread I learnt that there is  a Shiva linga even in Thiruvatar Adhikesa Perumal temple. When I went the temple was under renovation and so i could have the darshan of Perumaal but probably did not notice or see the Shiva lingam.

So from this info we can conclude that even before Brahma is created Lord shiva, who is a devotee of Perumaal exists. Hope this helps us to come to a conclusion on the discussion we had some time ago without any conclusion.

Moreover form Acharyas and Velukkudi swami’s upanyaasams I have learnt that The three doors in Anantha padma nabha swamy temple is for different type of devotees. First door- nitya sooris second door – devatas( where Brahma is situated) 3rd door- normal jeevas in human form.

So since Shiva linga is inside the first door, it also confirms that Lord Shiva exists in spiritual world before Lord Brahma is created. But during creation, after Lord Brahma is created, Sada Shiva’s expansion/incarnation Rudra is created by Brahma.

Adiyen

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram enpanifan (Sivanand) Swami,

Regarding devareer’s conclusion “………….So from this info we can conclude that even before Brahma is created Lord shiva, who is a devotee of Perumaal exists…..…”.

It’s not said like that Swami.

Please go through the first thread Srimadh BhagavAtam verses say Sriman NarayanAn created Brahma and how Brahma created Sanath Kumaras to support his creation and due to their denial in supporting their father Brahmas creation, Brahma got angry and from his eyebrows was created a child with lot of anger, and the child was crying, hence named as Rudra. This is detailed out in  Srimadh BhagavAtam Canto 3 Chapter 12 Texts 4 through 10., please see details in adiyen’s above 1st thread.

So Rudra is created by Brahma. Later Brahma retracted the creation assignment from Rudra since he created many asuraas due to his anger.

In Thiruvatar Adhikesava Perumal Temple, the Dayana kolam represents with No Brahma in Perumal’s Nabhi Kamalam, which means this Perumal exists before started creating Brahma. Hence obviously, it is understood that Rudra’s existence is not there because Brahma itself didnot exist.

So at a later time, Adhikesava Perumal when created Brahma and further Brahma created Rudra and other Shrishti happened, then comes this incident of Brahmas yaaga and Saraswathis intervention by creating asuraas etc…hence at that time Adhikesava Perumal gives Kainkaryam to Rudra, hence Brahma and Shiva is not seen in initial stages of the Thiruvatar Adhikesava Perumal temples, since Creation was not started yet, but Just Rudra is seen later surrounding Thuruvaatar with 12Rudra shrines each in different places as said in above 2nd post, due to the fact that Perumal giving Kainkaryam to Rudra. All these incidents happened after Brahmas creation, which is what Adiyen mentioned in 2nd posting above as 

“

Hence, these representations are seen in Anantha Padhmanabha Perumal Temple in Thiruvananthapuram, like from Perumal’s Nabhi Kamalam Brahma is seen and Shiva Linga in same sanctum.

However in Thiruvatar Adhikesava Perumal Temple, Brahma will not be seen in sanctum, since this Perumal represents HIS presence before HE did the Samashti shristi (before creating Brahma). Then came the later Thiruvanathapuram Anantha Padhmanabha Perumal Temple. So Brahma and Shiva presence in the material world is seen at a later stage.“

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Thanks Elayalwaar swami for the detailed reply. I agree with your last statement. “Lord Shiva’s presence in material world is seen at a later stage”..So it means he can exist in spiritual realm even before material creation.

I also highlighted the example and proof of the first door in Anatha Padbanabha swamy temple being for nitya sooris and Lord shiva is in the first door darshan.

There are narrations on how Gopis pray to Lord Shiva for their service and how he stands guard for Rasa leela in Goloka Vrindavan. Since this is an eternal spiritual pastime, it means Lord Shiva as a person as Sadashiva is also eternal. ( Yes his manifestation in material world is temporary and that form is taken back to spiritual world at the end of Pralayam as indicated in many verses of Alwars).

Also there are many verses where Lord Krishna and Perumaal indicate that Lord Shiva is very dear to him and reserves 50% of his heart to him. So that kind of a loving relation cannot be with a post called “Shiva” but with a eternal person ” Lord Sada Shiva” .

All these are supporting arguments to conclude that there is a eternal person (nityasooori jeeva) called Sada shiva in spiritual world, his manifestation in material world may appear after Brahma and disappears at the end of pralyam.

This conclusion does not contradict with any of the conclusions of Alwars/ Bhagavatham/ other Gaudiya vasinava literature.

Swami, I am not so well versed in sastras like you, I am quite an ignorant person,but by Perumaal and Acharaya anughram Lord has given me this inspiration to understand this topic well , because it was quite essential for my spiritual progress.

I think if we still have doubts or clarifications on this particular topic let us continue our service to Acharyaa and Perummal and reach Vaikunta and then all questions will be answered there.

Dhanyosmi Swami.

Adiyen.

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram enpanifan Sivanand Swami,

All these happenings are after secondary creation of Brahmas Vyesti Shrishti. Alwars or other demigods like Brahma, Shiva or others like us trying to get dharshan of Perumal. But incase of Nithya sooris, they descend from SriVaikuntam to enjoy Perumal’s leelai. That is up on their wish they come. Here we wait to get dharshan of Perumal, as said since Shiva is a Vaishnava, he is given first preference according to the sampradhayam that devareer mentioned.

As far as “Eternal” is concerned, devareer or Adiyen or Shiva or anyone are Eternal, since we all are “JeevAthma” and every JeevAthma is Eternal (like Diamond) qualities, but some eternal Jeevathma’s are in Material world for Anaadhi kaalam called “BhadhAthmas” like we diamond covered with 5 entities like karma’s, vaasanaas, avidhya, ruchi and prakruthi. But some eternal Jeevathma’s (diamond) are not covered with these 5entities, hence they are self illuminating called as MukthAthmas (each one of us either Devatas or manushyas etc.. will be like that later when we reach SriVaikuntam with Acharya Krupai.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayAcharyar) Dasan

Srimate Ramanujaye Namaha!

Namaskaaram Elayalwar Swami.

Just heard Swami’s Mahabharatam audio no 10. It was amazing that audio whcih swami has spoken many years ago and being replayed now coincidentally matched with this discussion.

Perumaal does speak to us through acharyaas and Guru  indeed.

Swami was explaining about the birth of Garuda in the side-incident/story related to Mahabarata.. then swami said Since Garuda is nityasoori, he always exists in vaikunta ,but “appears” in material world by taking a birth under Perumaal’s order/request and not by karma/self wanted reasons.

So the same logic applies to Lord Shiva, he manifests in material world for certain material duties on behalf of Lord Krishna and goes back to vaikunta planets at pralayam.

But this logic does not apply to Brahma ( some Brahmas are exceptions), Devas indra , chandra, varuna etc). Though all the jeevas in these posts are eternal , there post is temporary and not fixed.

But where as in Lord Shiva’s case or in Lord Garuda’s case  it is fixed ( their service to supreme lord is fixed  and same and no other jeeva can assume that role)

That is what i have been trying to put forward ( based on all the references from both Sri sampradayam and Gaudiya vaishnavism and Bhagavatham references in general).

Dhanyosmi!

Adiyen

Srimathe Ramanujaya Namaha,

Namaskaram enpanifan (Sivanand) Swami,

Adiyen posted the answer to Govindan Narayanan Swami’s further query as above. Adiyen was drafting the response while devareer posted devareer’s thought process.

Adiyen (ElayaAlwar) Srinivasa (DhoddayacharyAr) Dasan.

Srimate Ramanujaya NAmaha!

Namaskaaram Elaylaywar Swami and Govindan Narayaan Swami.

Kindly forgive me for a wrong statement i had made earlier in the above post “I think these info got covered in Srivaisnavism during the saivaite vaisnavism cold war era.”

I realized it is a big apacharaam to have made that statement. I Have sought forgiveness from Sri Ramanunajar for having made that statement.

After naama sankeerthanam today morning by Lord’s inspiration got a better understanding of the possible scenario of this complex topic.

I think Srivaisnavism texts and literature describes this leela vibuthi and focuses mainly on Sri Vaikuntam alone. Whereas other sampradayas like Gaudiya Vaishnavism they describe about other spiritual planets like Goloka/Vrindvan etc. It is described that Lord shiva stands as a guard for rasa leela dances and Gopikas pray to Lord Shiva( seeing him as a devotee of Krishna) for protection. Those literature’s also mention that Lord Shiva eternally exists as sada shiva in spiritual world ( but not sure which planet, probably not vaikunta but in vrindavan/Goloka) . 

So the correct understanding is description of Lord Sada Shiva is not discussed in detail in  Srivaisnavism literature, they do have references to Rudras, but not all rudras are not exactly Lord Shiva. They are expansions or incarnations of Lord Shiva. In Bhagavat Gita Lord Krishna Says ” Rudranam Aham Sankararah”.. So all Rudras are not Sadashiva, they are expansions /amsas of Sada shiva in material world.

Again kindly forgive  me for the inadvertent mistakes.

Adiyen.

Many thanks for your great explanation! Adiyen sastanga namskaram 🙏